It's funny at the same time paypal still let extorsion websites use its services: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6328480
PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
211–220 of 366 posts
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#212Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…
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Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think we're in substantial agreement as to Paypal desiring to shift losses due to fraud or non-performance onto the merchants. Since they desire to do this, they will not accede to Mailpile's desired world, where Mailpile gets 100% of the money on day 1 and then Paypal can seek recovery on day 120 or 365 if a chargeback comes in. Many HNers wish we lived in Mailpile's desired world 100% of the time regardless of me…
yeah, I totally agree. My only nit was your claim that Paypal bears risk. Its true that their model comes with risk and they've built their business model in a way that they shift it to third parties as extensively and quickly as possible. Its a sore point with me in how Paypa, Visa, etc. operate. The merchant is rarely right.
They bear risk if the merchant has just registered a new account, and that's the only PayPal transaction for the foreseeable future. How should they go recovering the chargebacks if your company has already filed bankruptcy?
If you transact $30M/yr, it's a totally different situation. When PayPal shifts the chargebacks/fines on you, they KNOW that at any given time you will be processing enough money through them that they can seize part of it in case you are not paying the fines.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#214Avoid Paypal as often as you can, simple as that. I am forced to use them for certain transactions, but anytime I can avoid them I do. I hate that they force me to verify my account, they force you to use Paypal credit (if you have it) instead of a CC, etc. I really don't like their one-sided policies...
>Force you to use Paypal credit (if you have it) instead of a CC What's so bad about that?
Sometimes I receive payment for one task and I need to pay for a service or product with another credit card. Say I have $1500 paypal credit from one of my businesses, and want to pay a $500 charge from a certain credit card. I am not able to do that without first withdrawing the money. It's beyond annoying, just let me pay with the funding source I want.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#215Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…
What credit card company allows a chargeback after more than 180 days? The only one I can find that does that in any circumstance is Master Card, and they only do that for "interruption of service" on prorated services.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#216Don't use PayPal for pre-orders.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#217> ... freedom to maintain your vision unbeholden to shareholders and 3rd parties.
Aye, there's the rub. Many of us want that freedom, but it's rare. Powerful people are generally quite beholden to third parties.
The president of the US can't do whatever he wants; neither can the CEO of Google.
In order to make our dreams real, we must communicate them in common language to stakeholders, a process which may flatten them and drain their magic.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
I wonder how much of Paypal's margin it would eat to just require a phone call with everyone who signs up for a Business account, asking precisely what kind of business they'll be doing (with the real possibility of denying their request.)
For some of their business products, you do actually have to get pre-approval. For example, I filled out approximately ~10 questions (about a page worth of text, about business model, business history, shipping/refund policies, anticipate monthly revenue, etc) to get Appointment Reminder the payments gateway to charge credit cards offsite. I got asked to call in with some elaboration. It went something like: "So this…
If you ever get asked a question phrased this way by someone not in the software industry you should probably not respond by saying "Hmm, technically they don't 'get' anything, well OK technically they GET lots of things, but the software is actually physically only on our servers and provided to them on a software as a service model, which means..." When people not in the software industry talk about downloading Gmail just smile and nod -- you don't understand their job, either
Ummm, maybe. I understand that you are paraphrasing and the actual conversation was probably more definitive, but the question as you phrased it may have actually been, "So if you go out of business the people will still actually have what they bought, right? We're not going to get a lot of angry customers wanting charge-backs...."
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#219Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…
These are all excellent reasons to have a review process and refuse to do business with certain customers. Nothing in there justifies the theft of a risky account's existing earnings.
PayPal's habit when shutting down an account is not just to stop doing business, but to keep all the money earned by the merchant and never speak to them again.
Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are glossing over one important point: PayPal has a financial stake in keeping money within their network for as long as possible. For every month they keep $X within their network instead of releasing to the rightful owners, they have effectively seized whatever could have been earned by investing $X for that month. For smaller amounts (individuals, small campaigns like ours), this is negligible, but in aggregat…
I totally understand that this inconveniences you a lot. Be that as it may, your conspiracy theory has no basis in fact whatsoever . Paypal will, in fact, not make large amounts of money on transaction float -- they're already probably losing money on your account by talking to you too darn much. Interest rates are presently something like 15 basis points ($150 per year on $100k). Even if we count their underwriter a…
Oh, I am sure PayPal are doing what they believe to be in their best interests. However, I think you overestimate their competence. The people we spoke with on the phone didn't even know what Open Source software is, let alone have an understanding of the risks involved. They were just following procedure.