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PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

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161–170 of 366 posts

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#161
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa there. Paypal loses nothing to fraud. Just like all the other middlemen, Visa, MC, etc., they shift their losses onto the merchants. The way this works out is that Mailpile files an answer to Paypal's RFI, Paypal reviews it and says something like "There's a 90 day hold on funds deposited to your account until you can demonstrate that you aren't high risk", Mailpile complies and everyone walks away happy. (Backg…

I think you misread what patio11 wrote. As he correctly points out, "Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't [stay in business]" New companies fail before getting a product out the door all the time. It's a very real risk.

Nope, Paypal only eats the risk if they release funds. They rarely release funds on high risk accounts, at least not without retaining a rolling deposit.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#162
Or you could read the terms of the business relationship with PayPal:

  Am I allowed to presell?
  Yes, you are allowed to presell items as long as you follow these guidelines.
  Off eBay presale requirements
  If you sell items in an online store (not eBay), you must guarantee delivery 
  within 20 days from the date of purchase and make sure that the customer     
  knows they are buying a presale item.
  [...]
  If you are selling goods or services in an online store (not eBay), you may 
  be allowed to presell items but we may hold your money in a reserve 
  account or limit what you can do with your account to reduce the higher risks 
  associated with presale items.
Or as the ruder ones of us said in the 90s on Usenet: RTFM.

https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/content/presale-policy...

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#163

Wow, I'm really surprised by the amount of snark on this thread aimed at mailpile. They are following IndieGoGo's standard process. For PayPal to take exception with them and single out their funds is ridiculous. If PayPal wants to start requiring IndieGoGo campaigns to submit business plans, they should work that out with the site, not an individual campaign, and certainly not after the whole thing is funded. This i…

Yes, it's odd how everyone is piling onto Mailpile for something that PayPal doesn't do with other IndieGoGo campaigns. If crowdfunding is so risky, why is PayPal totally fine with it for every other campaign out there?

Yes they make promises and there's no guarantee they'll deliver. That's the whole point of crowdfunding, it's like that for every other campaign. Why is PayPal singling out Mailpile?

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#164
this doesn't surprise me in the least.

reading the comments, this thread is turning into a paypal bashing which it shouldn't. what happened is not paypal's fault or some insider attempt at stopping the project from happening as some laughable comments have suggested.

paypal's top priority is to their customers, not the merchant. if you look at this from their perspective this is the right move as what would happen if the project just took the money and never delivered?

asking them for a detailed list of `itemized budget and your development goal dates for your project` is something that any smart investor would ask for and they should have had this done already so i don't see why this is cause for concern.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#165
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't keep BTC. I'm surprised the default method of using bitcoins isn't "I give send USD to my transfer agent, they make a BTC transfer to your transfer agent, and your transfer agent immediately deposits USD in your account", with the entire process occuring with a defined instantaneous exchange rate.

That's interesting! But isn't there any delay between currency exchange and an exchange fee as well?

Yes, I imagine that, like with Paypal, the sender would be responsible for eating both exchange fees. The delay, on the other hand, would impose price volatility that would likely be equal in both directions--so as long as the transfer-agents formed a network with an agreement that the receiving agent smoothed over both all losses and all gains during transfer, there should be net zero liability (they'd just need some float.)

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#166
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misread what patio11 wrote. As he correctly points out, "Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't [stay in business]" New companies fail before getting a product out the door all the time. It's a very real risk.

Nope, Paypal only eats the risk if they release funds. They rarely release funds on high risk accounts, at least not without retaining a rolling deposit.

That's what we like to call "the point"

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#167

Indulge me in a flight of fancy in which we pretend, for the sake of argument, that a) Paypal is run not by Snidely Whiplash clones but b) by smart geeks working with thin margins in a highly regulated industry where c) customers are at risk essentially never, d) merchants eat 100% of the risk if they stay in business, and e) Paypal eats 100% of the risk if the merchant doesn't. Why is Paypal very skeptical of pre-sa…

Whoa there. Paypal loses nothing to fraud. Just like all the other middlemen, Visa, MC, etc., they shift their losses onto the merchants. The way this works out is that Mailpile files an answer to Paypal's RFI, Paypal reviews it and says something like "There's a 90 day hold on funds deposited to your account until you can demonstrate that you aren't high risk", Mailpile complies and everyone walks away happy. (Backg…

I think we're in substantial agreement as to Paypal desiring to shift losses due to fraud or non-performance onto the merchants. Since they desire to do this, they will not accede to Mailpile's desired world, where Mailpile gets 100% of the money on day 1 and then Paypal can seek recovery on day 120 or 365 if a chargeback comes in. Many HNers wish we lived in Mailpile's desired world 100% of the time regardless of merchant risk profile, but we don't, which was the general thrust of my comment.

In terms of predicting Paypal's disposition on this particular case, I think it's a little trickier than a 90 day rolling reserve, because the product doesn't exist and shipping is binary rather than mapping to the rolling window of binary events like a physical goods business. If they were selling trendy iPhone cases and had bitten off more orders than they could presently chew, then an X% rolling reserve for Y days would likely be sufficient to insulate against the risk of some orders not shipping. Software businesses can fail on day 91 in an explosive a fashion as they can on day 1, and it appears from the report of Paypal's communication that Paypal is aware of this and is disinclined to do a fractional rolling reserve absent shipping. One would assume that if they ship this business goes to fairly low-risk instantaneously [+] and a reserve is probably unnecessary at that point.

Ultimately that's up to Paypal rather than either of our guesses.

[+ Well, it would be low-risk with respect to new orders instantaneously after shipping. It might not be low-risk with respect to pre-orders for a while yet, as customers could suffer from buyer's remorse, be dissatisfied with the product as shipped, not remember the transaction, or engage in friendly fraud, at rates substantially higher than transactions with lower delay between purchase and delivery.]

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#168
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But with Bitcoin, if you trust the merchant/recipient you can opt out of using escrow and transfer the money directly to him. With Paypal it's impossible.

This merchant offered Bitcoin. The vast majority of payors chose to use PayPal with its built-in buyer protection instead.

The fact that the vast majority of payors used PayPal rather than Bitcoin certainly has nothing to do with PayPal's buyer protection and everything to do with Bitcoin being obscure and more complex to use.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#169
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an escrow service because it allows the buyer to reverse the transaction.

It wouldn't kill paypal to have non-reversible transactions as long as this is made clear to the user.

Paypal is just an intermediary between merchants and whatever payment methods customers use to pay Paypal, such as debit/credit cards and bank transfers. And guess what? The modern financial system has no irreversible payment methods. Bank transfers, credit cards, and ACH are all reversible, wherever you go around the world.

If you haven't heard of it before, the May Scale of Monetary Hardness is a great way of thinking about this: http://stakeventures.com/articles/2012/03/07/the-may-scale-o... . If you're a payment intermediary, and you're delivering irreversible assets like gold coins or briefcases full of cash in exchange for very reversible payment methods like credit cards for personal checks, you will get horribly, horribly burnt by fraud, because you can deliver the gold coin and find out weeks later that your credit card was charged back. http://whatilearnedtoday.jameslarisch.com/?action=view&url=b... is a great example of this with Bitcoin and Paypal respectively.

It's not even about educating the user about irreversible transactions -- it's just that there's no way for Paypal to offer them unless customers fund their Paypal purchases by dropping off briefcases of cash and gold bullion at their local Paypal branch.

Re: PayPal Freezes Mailpile Campaign Funds

#170
post #150
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is talking about using that currency as a way of being paid (= running his business), not for investing neither for speculating. N.B. maybe I'm wrong but according to this graph: http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg360ztgSzm1g10zm2g... http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price Now bitcoin has half the value than in April (and, I known, 10x Jan value). Too volatile to use if your business IMHO.

Like it has been said a gazillion times already, you can get paid in USD if you want to (using Bitcoin behind the scenes). You get the same benefits as a merchant (no chargebacks, easy implementation, ridiculously small fees, countries: All), and without the annoying x10 yearly gains.

That's probably what you should have said in the first post (benefits as a merchant) and not implying he was dumb because it was missing those fabulous gains
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