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Google is defragging Android

arstechnica.com

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Re: Google is defragging Android

#211

Post by lokedhs »

fleitz wrote: post #129
andrewfong wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real keys are that your Android device is locked down, fixing it voids your warranty As it should. There's nothing in open source that requires a warranty. Here's a snippet from the MIT license, generally considered open: "THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINF…

Perhaps you shouldn't have to modify a firmware to install your own OS on an 'open' platform. IBM somehow figured out how to do it on an IBM 5150 back in the early 80s and my Raspberry Pi supports it on ARM systems. I'm happy to use my iPhone which doesn't allow firmware mods under warranty, however, I've never heard Apple talk about the iPhone being an open platform. Google's stance on the openness of Android strike…

What part of Android requires keys to install?

Oh, you mean the _hardware_ is locked down? Guess what, I can't install Ubuntu on an Iphone either. I guess that makes Ubuntu non-open then?

Re: Google is defragging Android

#212

Post by luke-stanley »

charleslmunger wrote: post #120
SirPulse wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just that, Google is devoting its energy to develop the closed platform rather than developing android. The example you give are relatively minor updates with major new functionality now being developed outside of core android as the author points out.

Google also devotes energy to search, email, robot cars, internet balloons... the idea that having a closed source set of APIs for google products is stealing resources away from android is specious.

The point is that more energy being put on closed source Android development rather. Yes, Google has a lot of money but money is not it's only resource. Unnecessary projects have been closed off like Google Labs, Reader etc etc. Google has a limited range of focus, Google's Android developers have a limited range of focus and Google would seek to guard them against unsupported distribution systems (open source ones). Maybe Google will open source more?

Re: Google is defragging Android

#213

Post by RealCasually »

e12e wrote: post #106
RealCasually wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should it be free software? What gives you a reason to feel that level of entitlement?

I want the freedom to control what software runs on my device. One straightforward way to do that is for the play app and service (or at least the service api) to be Free software. So, I would like to run Free software on my devices. Thankfully the kernel is still Free software, so there's still hope we can have open distributions going forward. It seems a shame to double the work to achieve that goal, so I think it…

I want a pony, too. But unless I am willing to pay for it, I won't get one.

You didn't answer the question--what makes you believe you are entitled to free software from a company that employs thousands of people to write it?

Re: Google is defragging Android

#214

Post by wnevets »

corresation wrote: post #56
engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. This is so utterly and complete wrong, and is the sort of ultra-polarized, hysterical comment that does not belong on HN. I suspect that the single and only reason it isn't dim gray is the appeal-to-sympathy "you downvote the truth!" noise that manipulates the weak-willed. Just to be clear, Google has always had closed source, pro…

This is 100% correct. The google apps have always been proprietary, custom roms for example arent allowed to include them.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#215

Post by etler »

corresation wrote: post #56
engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. This is so utterly and complete wrong, and is the sort of ultra-polarized, hysterical comment that does not belong on HN. I suspect that the single and only reason it isn't dim gray is the appeal-to-sympathy "you downvote the truth!" noise that manipulates the weak-willed. Just to be clear, Google has always had closed source, pro…

The problem is that people have built false expectations for themselves about what Android is, and even created false definitions of what open source is. All Android is is the operating system. Take any Linux distro, and strip out all the applications bundled with it and you don't have much. All open source means is that you can legally fork it.

People have created their own definitions for these things on no basis. There's a reason why there are so many terms in the open source world. There's Open Source. There's Free software. There's Free and Open Source software. They all mean different things, and the reason we nerds have so many definitions is precisely to avoid these kinds of misconception and false expectations. Ironically they've become complicated enough that everyone else ignores their definitions.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#216

Post by etler »

engrenage wrote: post #6

Notably, Play services is totally closed. So Google has abandoned the open source part of Android and is now developing the operating system as a completely closed product. Edit: downvotes don't change the truth of the observation. Android is no longer meaningfully open, other than a years old core of basic functions. Just like OSX and Darwin.

Open Source has an accepted definition. The Open Source Definition was created for the purpose of clarifying what should b required to label something Open Source. Just because they don't go beyond that to the point that others in the community do doesn't mean it isn't open source.

http://opensource.org/osd

In particular:

>License Must Not Restrict Other Software

>The license must not place restrictions on other software that is distributed along with the licensed software. For example, the license must not insist that all other programs distributed on the same medium must be open-source software.

Not only does Open Source not imply everything on the platform should be Open Source, it's explicitly against its definition. Google Play services does does not affect the base android operating system. It is given root permissions on the Google backed distributions of the Android Operating System.

It's perfectly fine to complain about Google giving itself a root level backdoor into their official distro. If a less trusted company were to do the same thing, there would be a perfectly validated uproar. But don't change the definition of open source to bolster your argument. In your edit you say "Android is no longer meaningfully open". That's fine, but don't say that it isn't open source, or that it's closed source. That's blatantly by definition false, and the open source community takes their definitions seriously for a reason.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#217

Post by e12e »

RealCasually wrote: post #213
e12e wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want the freedom to control what software runs on my device. One straightforward way to do that is for the play app and service (or at least the service api) to be Free software. So, I would like to run Free software on my devices. Thankfully the kernel is still Free software, so there's still hope we can have open distributions going forward. It seems a shame to double the work to achieve that goal, so I think it…

I want a pony, too. But unless I am willing to pay for it, I won't get one. You didn't answer the question--what makes you believe you are entitled to free software from a company that employs thousands of people to write it?

If I had spent a million constructing a virtual pony, and I could give you a copy of it without any additional cost, I'd give you a copy of my pony.

However, the pony in this analogy is the device, not the software. The software is more like the saddle -- and Google are selling ponies with their own custom designed saddle, making it hard to ride it any other way than bareback if you don't use Google's saddle - so that they can sell adwords printed on the saddle, and take a cut from everyone that sells Google compatible stirrups.

At any rate, I didn't say I was entitled to it, just that I couldn't see any reason to keep it closed. I do see many reasons to keep it open.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#218

Post by nordsieck »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #113
esolyt wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real keys are that your Android device is locked down, fixing it voids your warranty That's not an issue about Android though, it's an issue with manufacturers.You are free to release an Android device that is not locked down.

thats effectively a distinction without a difference to consumers, to run android you still need an android device.

There is tons of open hardware you run Android on. It's just not phones. https://www.google.com/search?q=android+arm+computer

Re: Google is defragging Android

#219

Post by RealCasually »

e12e wrote: post #217
RealCasually wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a pony, too. But unless I am willing to pay for it, I won't get one. You didn't answer the question--what makes you believe you are entitled to free software from a company that employs thousands of people to write it?

If I had spent a million constructing a virtual pony, and I could give you a copy of it without any additional cost, I'd give you a copy of my pony. However, the pony in this analogy is the device, not the software. The software is more like the saddle -- and Google are selling ponies with their own custom designed saddle, making it hard to ride it any other way than bareback if you don't use Google's saddle - so tha…

I see a great many reasons to keep it closed, not least of which is many millions of dollars worth in intellectual property.

Re: Google is defragging Android

#220

Post by e12e »

RealCasually wrote: post #219
e12e wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I had spent a million constructing a virtual pony, and I could give you a copy of it without any additional cost, I'd give you a copy of my pony. However, the pony in this analogy is the device, not the software. The software is more like the saddle -- and Google are selling ponies with their own custom designed saddle, making it hard to ride it any other way than bareback if you don't use Google's saddle - so tha…

I see a great many reasons to keep it closed, not least of which is many millions of dollars worth in intellectual property.

What intellectual property do you think are in the pieces that are closed, in the Google apps and apis for android?

There's certainly a lot of work put into making the stuff work -- but opening up the code won't make it stop working for Google. And I really doubt there's much fancy in there - mostly just grunt work to implement some straightforward ideas. I fail to see how opening that up under something like the GPL or AGPL, preventing someone to (legally) take the code and "run away" with it -- will lower the value of the Android system.

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