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Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

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Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#211

Post by sajithdilshan »

lava_pidgeon wrote: post #198
sajithdilshan wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is a reasonable claim. Trump would be gone in few years and the constitution guarantees it. What does EU has? more bureaucrats? EU doesn't even has a constitution and yet it interfere with the politics of sovereign nations till they bend the knee to Brussels

There is a constant change in politicians and parties and views among people (hello 2022!) about policy topics inside the EU all the time. Do you seriously think politics in the EU stays the same?

It absolutely has. It's always more regulation, more bureaucracy and more red tapes. They are just creating more barriers to keep themselves employed and to expand the reach of their authority.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#212

Post by mnewme »

nradov wrote: post #197
mnewme wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European countries have higher freedom of press than the US. Bearing arms is not a human right in Europe, different culture. Europe has more human rights protections than the US and stronger enforcement of them, even against the state, by many metrics. Freedom of expression ends where other human rights begin, is protecting hate speech and Holocaust denial really something worthwhile?

So are you claiming that human rights are subjective and not universal? Or that it's acceptable for the EU to violate human rights if the USA is worse in some ways? Belarus is a European country. How is freedom of the press doing there?

I don’t know why you think the American definition of human rights is universal?

It is. Look at the freedom of press index for example. And as the US doesn’t accept foreign courts, there is not really a legal apparatus against the state outside of the US, which many European countries do have.

Belarus is not part of the EU, nor did it sign many of the international human rights

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#213

Post by satvikpendem »

frollogaston wrote: post #202
zarzavat wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just NIMBYism, literally. Street View is one of the most amazing technologies ever invented. It brings humanity closer together. No longer do you need to get a visa and get on a plane to see what the world is like in a particular place. You can just look on street view. Throughout history people have given up their lives for that kind of world knowledge. Your inclination to ruin one of humanity's greatest ach…

NIMBY is something different, but I'm a proud NIMBY too. People can vote for what happens in their own towns.

At the expense of the overall economic health of everyone. See the rents in San Francisco for examples compared to places where countries actually build, like Singapore and China.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#214

Post by mnewme »

0x3f wrote: post #124
mnewme wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not denying Mistral is not top tier anymore, (except OCR and STT for speed/efficency) just that the AI Act is not the reason they are not. But we will see, they have very interesting Enterpise Use Cases, like with Mistral Forge. And YannLeCun decided to build in Europe as well

> And YannLeCun decided to build in Europe as well AMI has offices across the world. Fact is, companies often have at least an office where the CEO lives. Same when Musk kicked up a stink about 'leaving California'. It wasn't really anything of substance.

Yes but you can make the reverse argument as well: many US companies have offices in Europe and often their research departments.

This whole US vs Europe discussions are fruitless anyways

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#215

Post by mnewme »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #179
HDThoreaun wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be a place for domestically sourced AI I think. Even if Mistral models suck theyll get enough defense revenue that they wont go out of business

Sums up EU in a nutshell, if it cannot compete in the open market, fund it by tax payers money (defence budgets are funded by tax payers money)

They do in many other areas. Look at ASML or look at chemicals

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#216

Post by aspenmartin »

FridgeSeal wrote: post #199
aspenmartin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can grumble about the way things are but Europe being so far behind a technological race with important geopolitical ramifications means that you guys are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Have fun with zero of European regulations impacting frontier development and then eventually having to depend on it.

LLM’s are nice. But if push came to shove, we could very easily continue on without them, or without them involved in every aspect. Being able to write cutesy SaaS apps faster is neat, but not like, essential, the way water is.

LLMs are a “nice to have” blows my mind. LLMs power autonomous drones that kill real people in real wars. Coding agents are the primary way people code. That and we get a GPT4->5 jump every 18 months. Are we on the same planet?

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#217

Post by aspenmartin »

ToucanLoucan wrote: post #148
aspenmartin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can grumble about the way things are but Europe being so far behind a technological race with important geopolitical ramifications means that you guys are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Have fun with zero of European regulations impacting frontier development and then eventually having to depend on it.

I am dying to know what the important geopolitical consequences are of not having a ChatGPT lolol Oh gods our politicians will have to read their own emails, and write them too! We may never recover. Clearly there is no path forward apart from mass surveillance.

You are totally right, reading emails and vibe coding saas apps is all we can do. Omg why didn’t we think of that? Someone get the pentagon on the phone and cancel the drone warfare technology they’re already using and proving out in the battlefield with Palintir. Someone also call the NSA: we don’t need to hack nor do we need surveillance and spying nor do we need robust defenses against all of this. Ah!! Also the president, we can surely cede the market benefits to other countries that’s totally fine.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#218

Post by okanat »

niemandhier wrote: post #180

Being slow is sometimes a problem. But if the needed total revenue for an investment is so absurdly large, that we need to capture 5-10% of the labour market, being slow might mean not burning in the crash. The US drove the CCCP to bankruptcy by investing in nuclear bombs. Maybe history repeats itself.

The US was able to do that because a majority of the world including Europe was determined to exclude USSR from all trade and by putting them into extreme paranoia of total destruction. EU has lots of trading partners from the West and not everything is improved by AI.

Yes an economy that's being inflated by AI can affect acquiring of certain resources like DRAM or certain silicon quotas, if you're not joining the bandwagon. However there is enough in-house tech in Europe to prop up the critical industries that do not get affected by AI.

The US also needs someone to sell their stuff for keeping the inflated prices. A majority internal market is as unhealthy for the US as the EU.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#219

Post by joe_mamba »

Plasmoid wrote: post #207
joe_mamba wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>250 years is not a particularly impressive amount of time for a country to not fall apart. 250 years is older than almost every country in Europe (by that I mean current borders and form of government, not the ancient historical ones). Most were monarchies or various forms of dictatorship till only a few decades ago and finally settled on their current borders only after WW2 or the fall of the USSR or the Yugoslav w…

> conflict free stability is super impressive by that standard. Not much happened between 1861 and 1865?

In terms of European history that barely counts a page, not even a chapter.

Re: Can Europe train a frontier AI model on the compute it owns?

#220

Post by sajithdilshan »

oliver236 wrote: post #20
morkalork wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a weird sense, the EU exemplifies what the USA would be like without a strong federal government: Dysfunctional as states compete with, undercut and stifle each other.

isnt the eu basically a less federalist version of the usa? how is it then that the usa claims its more free? the individual state members in the EU have more freedom than individual states. someone explain this to me please

EU is no where near US. EU started as a economic union and became a political nightmare. It would have done far better had it stayed only as an economic Union. Further, EU doesn't have a constitution. In US every law maker swear to protect and uphold the constitution and I don't even know what is the equivalent in EU.
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