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Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

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Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#211

Post by pas »

gnfargbl wrote: post #67
matteason wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare are very much pushing back: https://www.laliga.com/en-GB/news/official-statement-in-rela...

That statement from La Liga is nothing short of embarrassing. Raving about child pornography, in a simple copyright infringement case? And the repeated focus on "IPs" is incredibly disingenuous; Cloudflare's multiplexing of half the internet onto a small number of IP addresses is not exactly a secret in the tech community. Why are Spain's courts allowing this injunction to stand? It's clearly being used to bring the…

conservative (as in old school, football friendly) judges are not exactly new

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#212

Post by pas »

aduwah wrote: post #105

I wonder why didn't Cloudflare just say that technically they can't block the IPs for a short time as they have no mechanism to do it and it would take a significant amount of $$ to develop it. Right after this statement they could have permanently block all the IPs and let the outraged customers make enough noise that would have prompt the government to act sooner.

it's not blocked by Cloudflare, but by ISPs (as far as I understand)

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#213

Post by leadingthenet »

tshaddox wrote: post #209
embedding-shape wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it may be procedurally simpler for the Spanish government to compel ISPs to block IPs. The Spanish government is not the ones enforcing the ban here. La Liga and Telefonica went to the judges, who are the ones making ISPs to enforce these blocks, as an intermediate "fix" essentially.

Do you have an English word you can recommend that refers to what (in American English) I call the entire government of a nation?

The state.

“The government” (what we would call “the executive”) being equated to the state as a whole is a uniquely American concept, likely because the word “state” already has a different meaning in the federalist sense.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#214

Post by roughly »

embedding-shape wrote: post #201
roughly wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there’s no reasonable alternative that satisfies their “something must be done” without creating massive negative consequences for the rest of society, then in fact something must not be done, and the large corporate entity will either have to settle for not making as much money as they think they’re entitled to or figure out some other way to recapture those viewers.

> massive negative consequences for the rest of society What are these "massive negative consequences" you're talking about? Some IPs blocks from Cloudflare are blocked for ~90 minutes, some times a week. As repeated so many times, I agree it sucks, but it's not "internet is unavailable most of the week", it's "some websites are unavailable for some hours of the week". And also again, if you don't see "something must…

> And also again, if you don't see "something must be done" you're not able to adopt their perspective, so of course you'll never understand this, because you're seemingly refusing to. Fine, you do what you want, but don't mislead others what the real situation is, just because you're unable to grasp it from the other side.

I can see their point of view. I understand they consider this a disaster. I understand they are insistent that something must be done. I am saying that the remedy they are proposing has too many negative consequences to the rest of society to be allowed. I am saying that their interests, sincerely held though they may be, do not trump the interests of the entire rest of the country, and therefore their injury is not satisfiable in the manner they wish it were. As the man once said, you can’t always get what you want, no matter how large an economic enterprise you’re running.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#215

Post by eggprices »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #134
nhatcher wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Disclaimer: I don't know the first word about law) But I have been thinking about this quite a lot recently (mostly because I get angry at the power states sometimes have over individuals). Would the distinction really matter in this case?. I would think that in a "civil law" contry things could be even worse for the aggressor

It depends on the law in question. Civil law typically requires that the plaintiff's cause of action and desired remedy be defined in the relevant code or statute. This doesn't mean the average person is powerless; every civil code I know of will let you file a lawsuit for breach of contract, for example. I have no knowledge at all of Spanish law, though, so I have no idea who has grounds to sue whom and under what c…

Do they not have a charge of "tortious interference with business" in civil law like in common law? It's where one company just goes out of their way to fuck up your business for no good reason.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#216

Post by bobthepanda »

throwup238 wrote: post #178
dcrazy wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is it actually an unlawful act? A judge decreed that La Liga can demand the blockage of certain IPs. La Liga demanded the blockage of certain IPs. Does the fact that it had an unintended consequence on others somehow make it illegal?

Judges aren't perfect and just because they decree something, doesn't mean that the remedy implemented by the ISPs isn't also a violation of some law or regulation. Normally this would be handled by yet another court case, possibly going to a higher court to decide if there are contradictions or conflicts. The law is no stranger to "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios.

I mean, really, the appropriate avenue is for the legislature to clarify law, which is the subject of the article

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#217

Post by eggprices »

lukan wrote: post #166
brian-armstrong wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you ever accept a mismatched certificate? Even assuming that you think your ISP has no nefarious plans, are you going to be able to rigorously confirm it's their certificate? At that point you've bypassed all the mechanisms in your browser that do this heavy lifting for you.

Erm, where is the danger in a mismatched certificate, if all I want is to get some noncritical information from a blog or something?

Local privilege escalation in your browser is a danger. They can also abuse any privileges you gave to the website, such as camera and microphone.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#218

Post by eggprices »

TZubiri wrote: post #172
jerf wrote: post #50

One of the things that so often gets lost in politics is the concept of a stopping principle . If you know you want to do X, be it "enforce traffic tickets", "spend money chasing drug trafficking", or anything else, you really ought to be able to articulate some sort of stopping principle where you stop pouring the resources in. Maybe the problem is adequately solved. Maybe the further resources don't justify the tin…

I think if a court enforces a judgement and a court order, regardless of how trivial it was initially, all measures including use of armed force is warranted, the matter at hand stops being the original dispute, but sovereignity and power of the law. Does it matter that it happens over IP or CSAM? It doesn't happen over CSAM because there is no dispute there, there is no desync there between spain,the us and cloudfla…

Nothing stops the government from ordering Cloudflare to reveal the origin IP addresses of websites and then tracking them down and arresting them. They just don't want to. Cloudflare complies with court orders but the government doesn't think that's good enough. The government wants Cloudflare to be the internet police.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#219

Post by eggprices »

utrack wrote: post #202
embedding-shape wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you be using Cloudflare when there are better options, especially if you've known for years that this has been going on? Seems like a poor business decision really. Don't get me wrong, I hate getting blocked just because there is a La Liga game, but lets also take some responsibility for our own decisions here...

Is there a good alternative option for their reverse tunnels/ways to hide my real egress that'll also block the bots?

A VPS?

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#220

Post by eggprices »

878654Tom wrote: post #192
otherme123 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true, they just proxy the pirating sites to their true host. They have about the same responsability as the ISP themselves. Maybe you want Cloudflare to decide what to proxy and what to block without a judge ordering it.

Your ISP will route your packets and not obfuscate the original destination nor cache any content, provide Ddos protections, WAF,... Cloudflare does.

My ISP obfuscates my location by replacing it with an IP address . However, if the government wants to know my location, they can ask my ISP to find out a physical address based on an IP address. They can also ask Cloudflare to find out an origin IP address based on a domain name. This is normal. It's also slow. The Spanish government doesn't want to bother arresting pirates, it would rather be seen doing something about the problem, without doing something about the problem.
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