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France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

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Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#211

Post by clhodapp »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #192
konmok wrote: post #71

I think your devices should have government-mandated backdoors if and only if you are a public servant. I don't understand why private citizens are held to higher standards of conduct than politicians and cops.

> devices should have government-mandated backdoors if and only if you are a public servant This would be an intelligence bonanza. Better: mandatory, encrypted logging. Officials maintain the keys. When they leave office or are subpoenaed, they have the means to grant access. (If they can send and read their messages, they have the keys.) This is how NARA in the U.S. is supposed to work.

It's even more of an intelligence bonanza when it's done to the private citizens! That's the point of trying to do it!

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#212

Post by tagyro »

TiredOfLife wrote: post #166
cedws wrote: post #130

Remember when they arrested Pavel Durov? I don't buy their official reasoning. Dear European friends, our leaders are tightening the screws. If we don't make our voices heard this is only going to get worse. https://x.com/durov/status/1976420399970701543

I remember. It helped expose his lies about not traveling to russia and not collaborating with russian security services.

care to expand/provide some more info?

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#213

Post by raverbashing »

johnwayne666 wrote: post #202

HN title: "France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors" LQDN: "Dans ces articles, la cheffe de la section cybercriminalité du parquet de Paris – à l'origine de l'arrestation de Pavel Durov – menace également les développeurs·es de GrapheneOs. Interviewée, elle prévient qu'elle ne s'« empêchera pas de poursuivre les éditeurs, si des liens sont découverts avec une organisation crimi…

I agree

The thread linked is much more balanced than the title given

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#214

Post by threethirtytwo »

mothballed wrote: post #163
threethirtytwo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Logistically, when you combine private citizenship with government you get corruption problems because incentives are so misaligned. In fact private citizenship combined with government is the origin of corruption. Think about it, as a government official your incentive should be to preserve order, fairness and honor. As a private citizen your goal is to optimize the amount of money you make via business or employmen…

I'd argue the incentives of elected government and private citizens are even more misaligned than "private" ones. Elected government official doesn't own or have perpetual interest. All he can do is plunder as fast as he can in his unowned fiefdom before it passes on to the next guy. Fully private government would have incentive at least to preserve the value of the "Kingdom" if nothing else for his own children and…

But then you have the tragedy of the commons. As a central dictator, yes you want to preserve your government, and you act in ways that do this because you are the direct owner.

But in a democracy where you are one government official among many many other officials, one small corruption change that benefits yourself individually hardly effects the overall government. It is rational for you to do small damage to the overall government and gain a reward that benefits you disproportionally. It is the MOST logical action.

But then every government official acting rationally in aggregate causes the overall government to become extremely corrupt and that is the tragedy of the commons. Rational action in aggregate becomes irrational. Government needs to be separate from private business.

I guess it's because it's so culturally ingrained that it's hard to separate. The chase for money and business is entirely cultural. Money is paper and it's all fantasy stuff and the reason why we value it is solely because of culture. Government ideally needs to be seperate from this culture and have a more militaristic based honor structure where the incentive is to guard the citizenry. Government needs it's own cultural values. Easier said than done, practically every government official IS a private citizen and they all face the same misaligned incentives.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#216

Post by Ar-Curunir »

colordrops wrote: post #158
ekjhgkejhgk wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this for years: the more power you have the higher standard you should be held in. In most societies on the planet it's the other way around.

Everyone agrees with this obviously but it's like saying that we should be able to levitate or live in utopia. It's almost a law of nature that the types that become powerful are not your most savory individuals and will use the power to reinforce their positions.

You're talking like society hasn't changed power structures over the years. How things are is not some unchangeable physical law.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#217

Post by vatsachak »

foldr wrote: post #75
vatsachak wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Criminals and traffickers also use knives." London already did this

Not really? You can buy knives in London, and any laws regulating knife purchases are UK-wide, nothing to do with London specifically.

Nah, you're right. They title it "knife ban" but they list specific "knifes" that you can't carry, such as a sword (lmao at it being considered a knife)

I used to own many butterfly knifes in Middle School. Feels weird that you could be arrested for that in London

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#218

Post by bravoetch »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #124
konmok wrote: post #71

I think your devices should have government-mandated backdoors if and only if you are a public servant. I don't understand why private citizens are held to higher standards of conduct than politicians and cops.

I'm torn. I don't want backdoors but I do think police with a warrant from a judge should be able to access your phone.

There's a top tier DEFCON talk by the Lavabit email guy. He explains where the line is for access to phones and other encrypted information. I'll try to summarize -

1 - Law enforcement have actual information about the probable contents of your phone (like an incriminating filename will do). They can reasonably expect to get a warrant and access to your stuff.

2 - They don't know what's there at all, and have no probable indication of the contents, and in this case they cannot expect access because they would just be going fishing.

Having said that - backdoors are bad.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#219

Post by jmward01 »

True freedom, of any kind, requires freedom to say things and think things in private. I sometimes think horrible things and even discuss them with my friends. I need that space to work out issues. Without a truly safe space I would eventually go mad as I suspect many people would. The other part of this is that a basic requirement of freedom is trust with accountability. It means we allow things that may be harmful but if things go bad we hold those responsible accountable after the fact. It also means we may not catch all the bad guys and that is OK because the alternative is that everyone turns into a bad guy when we prevent people from doing things in case they will be bad. There is a balance here but the position that a govt will always have access to all private individual (acting in a private capacity) communications is not anywhere near a reasonable balance.

Re: France threatens GrapheneOS with arrests / server seizure for refusing backdoors

#220

Post by YC666943749 »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #201
moffkalast wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know I didn't use to understand libertarians, but after years of watching boundaries being overstepped again and again I think I see the appeal of burning it all down and living in a cabin in the woods. Like, in Europe we already live in a completely safe society in historical and geographic terms, what more do you fucking want? Security is beyond a laughable excuse for things like chat control. Power tripping el…

I agree with your overall sentiment, except: "Like, in Europe we already live in a completely safe society in historical and geographic terms" Russia. Putin.

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