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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#211

Post by heavyset_go »

worble wrote: post #155
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - boot times are less than a minute so it really isn't a issue for me, just flick the power switch, wait for a bit then I'm good to go.

S3 sleep is a solved problem and security issues around it are solved by Secure Boot and memory and disk encryption.

The issue is that firmware vendors disable S3 sleep in favor of s0ix/Modern Standby instead, which just puts hardware into low power states instead of stopping them entirely. This will inherently drain more power over time than just keeping memory powered in S3 sleep.

Modern Standby requires heavy integration with the OS to be power efficient. Turns out that takes a lot of reverse engineering because vendors will not release documentation or tune the kernel for their firmware.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#212

Post by heavyset_go »

billfor wrote: post #149
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

I thought the issue with suspend on Linux was that swap had to be encrypted, but you could do it without kernel changes. There are some instructions here: https://techblog.dev/posts/2023/08/encrypted-swap-partition-...

Encrypted swap is a solved problem and has been for a long time

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#213

Post by heavyset_go »

mort96 wrote: post #145
deepsun wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Linux is not the issue -- my System76 Lemur holds 14+ hours. Haven't used X1 Carbon for a while, but it also held way longer than Framework.

How long does it keep its charge in sleep mode? Weeks or days?

System76 edits firmware to enable S3 sleep on their machines. S3 sleep uses less power than Modern Standby.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#214

Post by heavyset_go »

izacus wrote: post #58
maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

The thing is - a lot if power saving is achieved by hybrid sleep (computer hibernating after a timeout). Setting that up is pure hell on Linux, with poor documentation and security people actively fighting against making this easy. On Windows/macOS it just works, on Linux you'll probably break secure boot with it.

You edit one line in a file to enable hybrid sleep. Uncomment one line in /etc/systemd/sleep.conf:

AllowHybridSleep=true

Your Linux installer will also set everything up needed for it.

It's also a GUI option in KDE's System Settings.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#215

Post by cschep »

coldpie wrote: post #61
Aurornis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world I have to use Mac, Linux, and Windows desktops in my work. They all have their pros and cons, but I can’t say I’d ever argue that the Mac desktop experience is vastly inferior to the Linux desktop experience. Edit: Getting a lot of downvotes but most of the comments are about someone’s highly customized Linux desktop compared to completely vanilla Mac desktop. I…

Man just give me a way to switch between only the two most recent windows using a keyboard shortcut (without requiring some janky 3rd party program). Windows-style alt-tab. It's not a big ask and would make the macOS experience go from "barely usable" to "perfectly fine."

cmd-tab does this. what are we missing? cmd-tab, cmd-tab. terminal, browser. browser, terminal. has for years.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#216

Post by heavyset_go »

saratogacx wrote: post #141
terribleperson wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it just works on MacOS, but it's prone to all kinds of breakage on Windows.

That's because MSFT doesn't really do hibernate any more but does "modern sleep" where it functions like a phone with the screen off. It keeps active network connections, downloads patches and keeps checking for notifications and other such nonsense. BIOS support for proper hibernation has been getting worse too because with MSFT demanding it, there is little reason to continue support. I've had older laptops that do…

You used to be able to edit ACPI tables to reenable S3 sleep but these days they're stripping the functionality from firmware entirely.

For example, HP's enterprise lines have S3 stubs in their firmware. If you enable them, nothing happens, because someone deliberately removed the S3 blobs entirely.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#217

Post by chongli »

N-Krause wrote: post #46
jeffbee wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can’t hibernate (aka suspend to disk) you will never be able to get that power consumption low. This is cope. An Apple Silicon Macbook does not need to suspend to block devices to save energy (they only do this when the battery is empty). ChromeOS doesn't offer hibernate at all. The only reason that a Framework can't have good battery life in an operating state is that nobody is paying attention to the detai…

And what are those details? Sounds like you know specifics that I'd like to also know. If you're claiming it is just an oversight, then please back it up.

Timer coalescing, idle wakeup minimization, race-to-idle optimization, etc.

It's not a single oversight, it's a massive project that needs to be carried out throughout an operating system. Linux's usual advantage of decentralization and wide distro variety with massive customization potential is a disadvantage here. To have a power-efficient system you need all of the software to be working toward the same goal. One bad actor process can completely hose the system's power efficiency.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#218

Post by mjrpes »

heavyset_go wrote: post #211
worble wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - boot times are less than a minute so it really isn't a issue for me, just flick the power switch, wait for a bit then I'm good to go.

S3 sleep is a solved problem and security issues around it are solved by Secure Boot and memory and disk encryption. The issue is that firmware vendors disable S3 sleep in favor of s0ix/Modern Standby instead, which just puts hardware into low power states instead of stopping them entirely. This will inherently drain more power over time than just keeping memory powered in S3 sleep. Modern Standby requires heavy inte…

Not just laptops but affects computers too. I have a brand-new Mini PC with Windows 11 and when you turn it "off" it continues to pull 6-10 watts. Not a lot but still over a year if you were to only used it minimally that's 52-83kwh or around $25-45/year at PG&E rates. Vendors are removing support for classic standby/hibernate so the only way to go to <1 watt is to pull the plug. It shouldn't be this way.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#219

Post by pier25 »

AuthAuth wrote: post #202
jadenPete wrote: post #175

I really, really want an ARM laptop with great Linux support. It's very difficult to justify buying an non-M series laptop today, when the M series laptops outperform x86 laptops in battery life by such a wide margin. I'm sure some of that is because Apple controls their entire hardware and software stack and can optimize macOS for battery life, but it's hard not to believe that the processor architecture (i.e. x86)…

The M Series doesn't get battery life rep due to it being arm its purely due to Apple optimizing for battery life and partly marketing it a ton. You can get x86 chips that can do 24HR playing a video which is 5 hours more than the M2/M3 laptops and keep in mind thats running bloated ass windows which probably uses 2-3x the system resources of macOS. I'm pretty sure the snapdragon chips out preform Apple silicon at al…

> I'm pretty sure the snapdragon chips out preform Apple silicon at almost every metric.

No, not even close.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Air-15-M4-review...

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#220

Post by code_biologist »

fizwidget wrote: post #171
worble wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't deny that suspend is an issue on Linux I've just never seen this as a major problem? I simply turn off my laptop and turn it on when I need it - boot times are less than a minute so it really isn't a issue for me, just flick the power switch, wait for a bit then I'm good to go.

“Less than a minute” is going to feel horribly slow to people that are used to instant-resume and not having to think about shutdown vs. sleep. You might be okay with it, but I suspect most consumers today won’t be.

I'm reminded of this Steve Jobs story: So it's the MacBook Air guy's turn. He comes in and places his prototype down in front of Steve. Steve opens the lid. Two seconds later he picks up the laptop and heaves it so hard it skipped across the table like a stone on water: "I said fxxking INSTANT ON!!"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44879509

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