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Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

bessstillman.substack.com

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Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#211

Post by tenacious_tuna »

KurSix wrote: post #89
donatj wrote: post #47

One of my best friends died 12 years ago in our late 20s. I know he is dead, and yet a couple times a month I think, "Oh, I haven't talked to him in a while, I should text him!" before my logical brain kicks in and lets me know the deal. There is a dumb part of me that wants to believe, "Oh, he probably faked his death to get out of debt." He was such a schemer, if anyone would, he would. It was an open casket funera…

It’s love with nowhere to go

When I first encountered this description of grief it really resonated, but it's felt less poignant as I've gotten older, partly because I find myself grieving people who still live, and are simply too different from how I remember them or how I thought I knew them to support the relationships I want to have with them.

I suppose the principle still holds: the "love" I have for those versions of those people cannot go anywhere, but that feels dissonant with not wanting to know these people as they are, or knowing the relationship I'm wishing for is otherwise ill-fated. In either case, the relationship cannot continue, and that drive the sense of grief anyway, so maybe I'm just splitting hairs.

Such is the complex nature of grief and of human relationships, I suppose.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#212

Post by frithsun »

I'm all about hating on the psychiatry profession, but I believe what may be missing here is that these diagnoses are always optional.

If you like your grief, you can keep your grief. But if you need help, the criteria need to be there for you, for insurance companies, employers, and such to systematically do all their accounting and such.

It's a bit similar to a lot of controversies around the autism spectrum. If it's just a personality quirk and you're a functional adult then it doesn't really matter if you meet the this or that criteria. If you like your autism, you can keep your autism.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#213

Post by jdietrich »

pizzathyme wrote: post #33
graemep wrote: post #2

There is a problem with rigid medical definitions. There is a huge difference between the author of this, a young pregnant woman losing her husband, and say, something like a middle aged person losing an elderly parent (as I did earlier this year). Of course it will take her far longer to recover (if at all). I would guess her grief is not "disordered" though. As she says she functions - she works, she looks after he…

I'm so sorry for your loss. I agree with what you say about "disordered", the language is hostile. In a less morbid area, I feel the same way about ADHD - "attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder". For some people this is problematic, but others can function fine and happily with this. In those cases, why is it a "disorder"? Why can't it just be "how some people are"?

The DSM-5 defines ADHD as "A persistent pattern of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity that interferes with functioning or development". If you're functioning fine, then by definition you don't have ADHD.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#214

Post by entropicdrifter »

pseudalopex wrote: post #176
aeturnum wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so sorry to hear about what you and your wife have gone through. It sounds extremely frustrating and aggravating. I also suspect that when it comes up the people who downplay your wifes' conditions often act as if they are the insulted party. We have an epidemic of not taking psychological conditions seriously. As my depression has worsened I've understood better the depth to which someone can fall and re-though…

Someone can see their cyclic moods resemble bipolar disorder, use coping mechanisms developed for bipolar disorder, and gain empathy for people with bipolar disorder. Or someone can see their normal post traumatic stress resembles PTSD, use coping mechanisms developed for normal post traumatic stress, and lose empathy for people with PTSD.

Exactly this. Thank you

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#215

Post by tenacious_tuna »

graemep wrote: post #111
enobrev wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised by this take, simply because of my own experience, where the further I've gotten from religion over a very long time, the less significant I've found death. Not having "answers" to what comes next has never been a weight for me - at least not since I was a child. Death being a completion, or a finality, is freeing; The end of what has been and what I hope continues to be a wonderful journey. The only we…

I find that surprising in turn! What were the beliefs you had around death? I can sort of see why you found it less significant, but in monotheistic religions it is still pretty final. It is still the end of the one life you get, even if it is also the entry into something completely different and better.

I typed out the response below but I'm not sure I have a coherent response as to why the secular zeitgeist of death is less intimidating to me than the religious context of it. (Though, I'm not who you're replying to.)

I think it comes down to the sheer amount of pressure I felt within religion to be a certain way while also being told I could never be that way enough to achieve satisfaction in the eyes of god, and outside of religion I'm just another person in a flawed world trying to do my best.

--------

At the risk of being redundant, death within religion isn't an end, but yet another beginning. Eternal life is the reward for being a diligent disciple, where that means internalizing one's inherent flawed nature and inability to be redeemed but through death in devotion to god... which is a hell of a weight to carry throughout ones' life!

The Christian ethos is woven through with constantly being judged. And forgiven, yes, in theory, but still there is a constant undertone of "you cannot avoid making mistakes, and the mistakes you make are so offensive to god he wouldn't want you anywhere near him, but for magic religion reasons you've been redeemed by god doing something so terribly debased that it outweighs all the awful mistakes you've made."

Death (and "everlasting life") is no reprieve from this, but a form of stick that weighs heavy over you all through your days. You must work to save those around you, or they'll be eternally lost. You must cleave to the teachings of god, or at the very least belief in him, or you'll be eternally lost.

Since I left the church so many things of import that I felt I didn't understand now make much more sense; I struggled to comprehend how god could allow suffering, but now I see that the universe is just absurd and uncaring. While that may seem less comforting, I find the notions of bad things happening randomly less upsetting than there being an all-powerful being who cares about me but chooses to let me suffer for reasons that were never convincing, and as I've grown older sound more and more like an abusive relationship.

Through that lens, death is just a natural consequence of the world. Scary, yes, in the sense that I may not live up to all I want to be before my time is up, but I'm not pre-marked as eternally flawed and only redeemable through processes that do not make sense to me. Instead I know that I can only do my best, and that has to be enough, because I can't possibly do more.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#216

Post by catigula »

squigz wrote: post #210
catigula wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's is immensely epistemically arrogant to so confidently opine on this topic when every single day you experience consciousness, which is impossible to explain at all using Physics and likely simply impossible to ever explain within that framework (Edward Witten, the greatest living Physicist, shares this belief).

It's also extraordinarily arrogant - and rude - to state that atheists cannot deal with death. Certainly they face it with far more bravery than, say, someone who believes people don't actually die but instead go to a magical place in the sky.

1. You've made the mistake of assuming I'm religious. I am not. This is my lived experience.

2. I think that, largely, materialism is a system that isn't merely arrogant (which it clearly is, as outlined above), but also unfulfilling. You can simply ignore the concept of death but if you choose to really wrestle/engage with it in a materialist framework you will see yourself staring into an abyssal, terrifying maw. I think most atheists don't engage with this concept because it's difficult to do so, just as many religious people believe in religion because it's convenient to do so. It's a fairly even cut.

I've already stated I'm not religious, which I'm not. I share the scientific view that human behavior is explicable so far as we can tell via mechanical/biological mechanisms, behaviors such as altruism not being explained because they are objectively good, but only being explained as preferences we've evolved because they were conducive to our genetic survival.

But, let me propose something from a scientific/rational point of view to you, a brief experiment sort of in this vein. Paraphrasing, Jesus said something like "if you do not believe me, believe the works".

I know this may seem a massive imposition, or horrific undertaking, or you may not be able to engage with it meaningfully, but, if you are able to humor me, I'd propose this:

Take all of the core precepts of what most religions might propose as being 'good' - there is variance but that's alright, humans disagree in every domain on everything - and apply them to your life.

Nip lies in the bud. Road-rage, rage at people on the internet? Let it go. Forgive those people and treat them well. Give people the benefit of the doubt, even people you hate.

You won't be perfect, but don't let that discourage you.

I'm encouraging this experiment because I believe you will "believe the works" and see that there is an element of the human experience that is genuinely transcendant and you can do these things not merely because they are nice or convenient and may be easy to do in the moment, but because they are hard to do, require constant correction and should be done as you are compelled to treat the gift of your own existence with care.

I suspect we are compelled to behave transcendently for our own good though my only proof is lived experience that merely behaving as if this is true is immensely fulfilling. Quite the coincidence.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#217

Post by thijson »

randycupertino wrote: post #174
drivingmenuts wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best friend of 25 years died 4 years ago and I still think of him at least once a week, wishing I could talk to him. It was almost a year before I could even talk about him without completely breaking down. I never once thought: "oh, this is a medical issue". It was just me having the same problems processing my grief that American men have because we're not raised to talk stuff out. Once I did start talking about…

I still randomly gmail my dear beloved best friend who died of melanoma 18 years ago. It goes into the ether. I hope gmail doesn't reassign his account to someone else for inactivity, they will get my "thinking of you, miss you, this thing happened that you would have found hilarious" emails.

I heard about people that would keep the voice mail of a departed loved one on their phone undeleted. They would replay it from time to time to get the feeling that they are still there. Also they would wear their clothes to feel their presence.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#218

Post by rkomorn »

khazhoux wrote: post #190
opan wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens to those accounts they've been deleting for inactivity lately then?

They just sit there, dead.

Yep. I've been trying to get one for my username.

It's one of only two conflicts I've ever encountered online, and it's been inactive for over a decade, but I can't claim it.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#219

Post by squigz »

catigula wrote: post #216
squigz wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also extraordinarily arrogant - and rude - to state that atheists cannot deal with death. Certainly they face it with far more bravery than, say, someone who believes people don't actually die but instead go to a magical place in the sky.

1. You've made the mistake of assuming I'm religious. I am not. This is my lived experience. 2. I think that, largely, materialism is a system that isn't merely arrogant (which it clearly is, as outlined above), but also unfulfilling. You can simply ignore the concept of death but if you choose to really wrestle/engage with it in a materialist framework you will see yourself staring into an abyssal, terrifying maw. I…

I'm unsure why you think I don't already try to live a "good" life.

To me, and most atheists I've discussed this with, death is not an "abyssal, terrifying maw" - it is simply the natural conclusion to life of any kind. It does not 'scare' me; it inspires me to live a good life, to help others, to die with the knowledge that I hopefully made the world a slightly better place.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#220

Post by catigula »

squigz wrote: post #219
catigula wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. You've made the mistake of assuming I'm religious. I am not. This is my lived experience. 2. I think that, largely, materialism is a system that isn't merely arrogant (which it clearly is, as outlined above), but also unfulfilling. You can simply ignore the concept of death but if you choose to really wrestle/engage with it in a materialist framework you will see yourself staring into an abyssal, terrifying maw. I…

I'm unsure why you think I don't already try to live a "good" life. To me, and most atheists I've discussed this with, death is not an "abyssal, terrifying maw" - it is simply the natural conclusion to life of any kind. It does not 'scare' me; it inspires me to live a good life, to help others, to die with the knowledge that I hopefully made the world a slightly better place.

You're saying the words but I suspect you haven't interrogated them. Again, I'm not sharing my speculation, I'm sharing my actual experience and conclusions as an atheist. Anyways, it doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere with our dialogue, cheers.

Also I want to point out that it's clear that you don't practice what I outlined or you wouldn't have mocked the belief of religious people as "a magical place in the sky", hence cargo cult morality. It looks like morality to you, it may even feel like morality, but it demonstrably isn't. You haven't inconvenienced yourself at all, you merely did what felt good.

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