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Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

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Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#211

Post by throwaway2037 »

Esophagus4 wrote: post #113
luke5441 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having probably signed such a contract, how do I find out if it is enforcable? Probably talk to a lawyer, but how do you find one that gives you a straight, but correct, answer to such a complex topic. For me it is even more complex since I'm a fake employee (contractor) in another country working for a US company. The answer to those questions might be really unsatisfying in practice, since it breaks down to a cost…

[not legal advice] Having talked to lawyers about this sort of case, be prepared to speak to several to find a match, or read between the lines - when you ask questions like, “If I break this clause, what sorts of liabilities am I exposing myself to, and how often in your experience does that happen?” Be prepared for, “as my client, I don’t advise you to do that.” Not super helpful in my case, as I was trying to unde…

    > talked to lawyers
From my experience with contract lawyers, most of them aren't worth their fee. They just give you absurdly conservative legal advice that you could have guessed on your own. Once you start paying a lot more for legal advice, you will get more nuanced advice like, "if you want to take more risk, you should consider this option".

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#212

Post by throwaway2037 »

lanyard-textile wrote: post #196
secondcoming wrote: post #29

A few years ago an American company that approached me (UK based) about a job opportunity insisted I sign an NDA before I could interview with them. I refused and they couldn't understand why so they even put me in contact with one of their lawyers. I still refused, and they eventually relented, but I could never understand why I'd need to sign an NDA to attend a job interview. There's literally no benefit to me in d…

If you’re an employee under NDA, and your company considers almost everything about your work to be confidential, you can’t effectively paint a detailed picture for the role. The NDA gives them some protection to answer your questions openly and transparently.

You had to know your response would get no love here on HN. You seem to be missing the point that this is like a free option for the interviewing company. Did they offer to compensate this person... say 1000 USD per hour to interview? I doubt it. As a result, the person signing this NDA has 100% of the downside, with no upsides except a "potentially lucrative job offer". That seems like a wildly unequal offer.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#214

Post by bitwize »

anticensor wrote: post #201
bitwize wrote: post #142

In common law jurisdictions, there's a term of art in law -- "unconscionable". It's when a contract is so egregiously one-sided that no reasonable person would agree to it, and it could be ruled unenforceable. It's not reasonable to expect an employee to build up a body of expertise in a field, and then agree to be bound never to work in that field again after leaving your current job. IANAL, but confidentiality agre…

Civil law jurisdictions also have protections against one-sided contracts.

Indeed, but I believe in common-law countries, unconscionability is one of those common-law things that apply even absent a statute spelling it out.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#215

Post by detaro »

airocker wrote: post #169
airocker wrote: post #128

So if you are against this, you are okay with Coca Cola’s secret to be divulged by any employee to any competitor? If you cannot let companies maintain trade secrets, you may as well close them down.

why downvote this? I have gone through this route and can vouch this is for a good cause, this conversation may mislead people into believing stealing is okay.

because it's an obvious straw man.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#216

Post by ghaff »

jaggederest wrote: post #192
bruce511 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's not "for life". It's until they feel free to lift the non-compete. My guess is that most information you take from a company is irrelevant in a couple years. Maybe 5 tops? Plus it'd almost certainly end with zero notice. You'd get a email saying "you're free to go". Suddenly. After say 26 months. So it's not like a "pension for life" - just a gap in your employment history.

Oh no, ah jeez, slightly more than one year of income for zero effort, darn. Any employment gap can be easily explained by saying "I was under a non-compete and being paid garden leave while working on personal projects to keep my skills fresh". It's very common in e.g. the finance world, I believe.

I suspect most people with that sentiment don't have a mortgage/kids/etc. I have known youngish people who got a very nice severance package back in the day and essentially took a 6 month sabbatical. I don't really see a problem for getting future jobs so much. But it is a loss of significant income (assuming you were well-compensated even if you're still being paid something) and may not have great alternatives for income though, if you're in the position to do so, you can of course travel or whatever.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#217

Post by ghaff »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #205
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a difference between non-solicitation and non-compete. In the US, the former obligation might be acceptable while the later might not.

The "non-solicitation" agreements are so stupid. There is a cottage industry in headhunters where you tell your next employer who you want to recruit, then they ask a 3rd party recruiter to go track down that person after X months... and invite them to interview. I have seen it so many times in career.

It's definitely fuzzy. I mean, someone like an account rep or a financial advisor (and their clients) can't unknow somebody. So even if someone isn't taking their client list and calling/emailing everyone, there's inevitably going to be an element of client "poaching" so long as they're still in the same business.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#218

Post by Esophagus4 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #211
Esophagus4 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[not legal advice] Having talked to lawyers about this sort of case, be prepared to speak to several to find a match, or read between the lines - when you ask questions like, “If I break this clause, what sorts of liabilities am I exposing myself to, and how often in your experience does that happen?” Be prepared for, “as my client, I don’t advise you to do that.” Not super helpful in my case, as I was trying to unde…

> talked to lawyers From my experience with contract lawyers, most of them aren't worth their fee. They just give you absurdly conservative legal advice that you could have guessed on your own. Once you start paying a lot more for legal advice, you will get more nuanced advice like, "if you want to take more risk, you should consider this option".

This is good to know!

What are the other options than contract lawyers… IP? M&A? Employment?

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#220

Post by Der_Einzige »

kirubakaran wrote: post #40
thedufer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what conclusions you think we should draw from that. California's advantage over Washington is primarily one of size - Washington's GDP per capita is actually about 3% higher than California's. The most generous interpretation I can think of is that you're crediting the non-compete difference for California's far larger population, which is tenuous at best.

Shockley -> Fairchild -> Intel, AMD couldn't have happened with non-compete. So Silicon Valley couldn't have happened in Washington. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traitorous_eight Per capita isn't a good measure here, as Washington's weather helps lower the denominator (I say this as a former Seattle resident)

Seattles weather does nothing to lower the denominator. The PNW is rainy and somewhat cold, but not cold enough to kill homeless on the street in large numbers which is what folks seem to think lowers the denominator. And yes I do live in the PNW.
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