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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

mooreds.com

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#211

Post by EtCepeyd »

mooreds wrote: post #203
lokimedes wrote: post #193

NATO runs on this principle, “silent procedure”.

TIL: https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silence_procedure

Yes, but NATO members are not bound by contracts that classify them into superiors and subordinates. Whereas at work, you'll have some form of contract in which you agree to taking -- and usually: soliciting -- direction from your superior or client. Silence procedure works between equals, where each party is required, from the get-go, to (a) announce their intent to the shared message bus, (b) diligently listen to the shared message bus, and take action whenever necessary. The communication pattern between manager and report is totally different; the parties are not equals there.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#212

Post by EtCepeyd »

grahamm wrote: post #154

To me this is a key change in a direct reports development. When they first start they need to be told what tasks to do; then they develop to asking for permission to do tasks that find or know need to be done; and finally they are telling me they are doing a task so I know we are going in the right direction. These changes give much better autonomy within the team and I am know longer the blocker to progress. It als…

> finally they are telling me they are doing a task so I know we are going in the right direction

Yes, but. :)

Assume a high-profile open source project where your direct report is a maintainer. The higher-profile the project is, the more political it becomes, of course. Your report will not need your (= the manager's) input on technical decisions; instead, they will inform you (in the optimal case) of where things have been heading. However, if that maintainer also participates in community governance -- which is quite likely --, they won't be able to avoid decisions that are more political than technical in nature. And whatever they decide there may easily reflect on their employer or client, one way or another. That kind of stuff is something that they should consult you on, regardless of their technical seniority.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#213

Post by OutOfHere »

brookst wrote: post #58
OutOfHere wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather just work at a place where my hands weren't so tied. The actions you noted only come in the way of it.

It’s quite a luxury to work in a company where every interaction is perfectly empowered. Many of us have jobs that are on the whole very good, but where inter-departmentmental or inter-personal challenges come up from time to time. I’m definitely not one who’s willing to quit in search of the elusive perfect company in that case.

Startups often offer it, and it doesn't have to be so early stage that one has to work more hours either. Once a company gets older, it adds layers of damaging bureaucracy that comes in the way of innovation.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#214

Post by petesergeant »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #179
genewitch wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's also passive-aggrsssive. "I have scheduled beginning $X on $Date. Documentation:... Please remit any feedback, please and thank you" And in the second example, unrelated to the first scenario: "I had planned to begin $X on $Date, but priorities have shifted and $X is being tabled for now. Documentation:... Please remote any feedback, please and thank you." Don't lie or whatever, or do. I don't, but none of thi…

I think something like this to make sure they don't reject the idea: Planning to move forward with X on $Date. Docs are here, but if you object, I totally understand and will respectfully accept your decision... though I'd hate for this to be one of those decisions that comes back to haunt you.

> though I'd hate for this to be one of those decisions that comes back to haunt you

I think this is guaranteed to set fire to any goodwill you have in your organisation

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#215

Post by baxuz »

motorest wrote: post #107
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

I really dislike this approach as well. You basically light a fuse on a bomb and place the responsibility on others.

Saying "I will do things my way unless someone manages to convince me to do otherwise this within x days" is toxic and places a ton of pressure on your coworkers.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#216

Post by AlexSW »

mooreds wrote: post #201
wvenable wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the article does a disservice calling it a deadline. I had the same concerns at that point until I read the example and it clicked. It's really just the date you will do the thing, not really a deadline.

Author here. It's a deadline for feedback, which is why I used the word. Other comments have called it an ultimatum. Both of those might be unnecessarily aggressive terms, but I'm not sure what another one-word term for "time something is going to get done unless you object" is.

Timeline, maybe.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#217

Post by pigbearpig »

ysavir wrote: post #182

This seems like the sort of communication style that would immediately have me label someone as a liability. It presents the communication as if it's saving someone time. In practice, it's a communication style that tells the manager that they need to always keep on top of whatever the employee is doing or else that employee might be taking unwanted action(s). The article treats it as a notification, but even with th…

Agree, if someone did this to me and I didn't know them, I would find it presumptuous and annoying. If I had worked with them and had trust and I knew they were doing it out of respect for my time, then that's a different story.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#218

Post by seansmccullough »

wavemode wrote: post #46
locusofself wrote: post #24

I like this approach to communication, except the the "deadline" part. I'd prefer my reports just let me know if they are working on something which I may want to veto (because I may have more context as to why it's a waste of time or not a priority). Giving a "deadline" to your manager is strange, and almost like a weird, annoying threat. I also would like to think I would give people on my team enough autonomy to m…

Agreed, stating a deadline on something that is still just an idea, is weird and aggressive. Usually, a deadline is used to communicate "I have already decided I'm doing this, and received approval/consensus to do it, so now I'm informing you of the fact that I'm doing it."

A lot of times you have to set a “deadline” when interacting with other teams/orgs, or they will just never get back to you.
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