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Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

reuters.com

211–220 of 379 posts

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One nice thing about gold is that we don't have to keep paying money for gold to continue to exist. It will sit on a shelf and not charge us any money for sitting there. Bitcoin exists on a network of computers that need electricity to run. If we stopped paying for this network to run, the bitcoin would stop existing, since the ownership of bitcoin really is solely determined by the ownership records on this computer…

By your own argument gold is expensive - expensive to secure, expensive to transport, slow to transport (time is money), expensive to verify. So yes it does cost money to hold and transact gold. So your same 'leaky' argument applies. Maintaining any store of value or currency is never free, but the benefits far outweigh the costs as now we have an inflation resistant medium on which to trade goods and services with.

Well I'm not trying to argue for gold being a good store of value either, it might not be. But another reason why I would prefer to have gold is that people make use of gold to make jewelry and electronics, so that creates a demand that helps to prop up its value.

The point I was making is that in a passive state, just sitting on a shelf, I believe that the cost of maintaining ownership of all the gold in the world is orders of magnitude lower than the cost of maintaining the entire bitcoin network, and I think that must continue to be the case due to the threat of 51% attacks. (If the cost of running the bitcoin network drops below a certain threshold, it becomes profitable for a rogue actor to rent a large amount of compute power and force in some fraudulent transactions.) So I believe that the "leaky bucket" effect is stronger with bitcoin than it is with gold, and there isn't a similar real world use case of bitcoin similar to the manufacturing of jewelry like there is for gold to counteract this leak.

Therefore, the total value held by all of the holders of bitcoin must be declining due to this leak, which counteracts the idea that it is inflation resistant in the long term.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the use case is generally criminal, which crypto people elide by complaining about whichever country's government is currently being attacked in the media. They do this in order to make dodging taxes and government oversight sound heroic. It's also a way to transform a conversation about fraud and free-riding into easy nationalist cheerleading. What people want is anonymity, cheap/free checking, a…

I must be a criminal then lol. Banks are a pain in the ass to deal with. Bitcoin is a very practical and easy way to move large amounts of money around. That's why a lot of people use it. We pay our taxes when transacting it just the same. If you don't use Bitcoin, great, but don't make assumptions about those of us who do.

> Banks are a pain in the ass to deal with. Bitcoin is a very practical and easy way to move large amounts of money around.

There is no way you will convince me that setting up and using Bitcoin for daily transactions, all on your own wallet with your keys etc., is “easy” or any less of a “pain in the ass” than using a regular modern bank is on a daily basis. That’s even ignoring the baseline tech literacy one needs to have to get set up.

It’s a dead horse at this point but “practical” also comes at odds with bitcoin’s volatility.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> practical use cases This is satire right?

Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly, low transaction fee - pure P2P, and then being able to store it securely outside of a bank in your pocket. Have you dealt with wiring money before? How about holding large amounts of currency or gold outside of a bank? It sucks.

> Moving large amounts of money

I can do this with any remittance company

> 24/7 worldwide

Table stakes for any remit company

> outside of any bank

This is a con, not a pro. Banks add value and protect your money. They are regulated, insured and backed.

> quickly

All remit companies are instant nowadays (except in USA which has stupidly slow banking)

> low transaction fee

Bitcoin network fees are approximately equal to fees on OrbitRemit, Wise, etc.

> pure P2P

See the "outside of banks" point above.

> and then being able to store it securely

If you do absolutely everything right.

> outside of a bank

See above.

> in your pocket

??

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly, low transaction fee - pure P2P, and then being able to store it securely outside of a bank in your pocket. Have you dealt with wiring money before? How about holding large amounts of currency or gold outside of a bank? It sucks.

> Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly But who needs this every day? Most people value security of their money over that kind of flexibility, especially when modern online banking gives you 95% of the same benefits. Besides, one can tout all the “real” advantages they want, but perception is everything. If people think crypto is a quick way to get stolen from they simply won’t us…

Yea I guess this is where you anecdotal experience runs out because there are a lot of busy people and companies out there working in all sorts of industries moving a lot more than 10k around constantly. Banks are an unnecessary middle man not only slowing things down, but taking a a cut out of transactions as well.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#215
post #151

it's kinda ironic that crypto started as a rebellion against the banks that are stealing our money and all that

You aren't a rebel if you go mainstream, either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#216

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

Maybe I’m misunderstanding the analogy, but I thought wire fraud only applied to abuse of the bank wire system? Is unsavory advice really categorized as wire fraud?

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#217

Would someone explain to me what the endgame of these fraudsters is? I mean, of course they are trying to get rich quick pulling these schemes but you would believe that they do it because they perceive that there is some sort of opportunity to cash out without inevitably going to prison some day, right? What is the thought process in the mind of these criminals when shit hits the fan? Maybe just hire very expensive…

One of the things you have to understand about fraud is that much of it isn't rationally planned from the get-go. People get into situations and get caught up in the dynamics of them. Imagine a founder. He has an idea he thinks is brilliant. A sure money-maker. He's a bit of a dreamer, and objective observers would question whether it's possible. But the nay-sayers have been wrong before, and he believes in the idea.…

Love the cheeseburger analogy

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> practical use cases This is satire right?

Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly, low transaction fee - pure P2P, and then being able to store it securely outside of a bank in your pocket. Have you dealt with wiring money before? How about holding large amounts of currency or gold outside of a bank? It sucks.

I transfer money internationally weekly. I would never consider using Bitcoin for this for these reasons:

- volatility. This alone kills the wire transfer replacement use case

- theft. Just read the news on this one.

- speed. Instant SEPA is faster than any cryptocurrency.

- fees. Many types of bank transfer are free. Crypto transaction fees are often high. When they're not, they are highly volatile.

IMHO 'p2p' and 'outside any bank' are liabilities, not features.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#219
I'm shocked! SHOCKED! Well, not that shocked.

cryptocurrency is very attractive to people who want to scam people out of money, and ransomware probably wouldn't exist without it.

I say pour on the hate for cryptocurrency. The hate is justified and fully earned.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#220

And now "crypto" bros are moving to AI. The never ending story.

AI is not in the same category in my book. Both may be overhyped in some ways, but blockchain technology was fundamentally a bad idea with no legitimate use cases.

AI is exactly the same to marks that don't know any better and think complex new technology = $$$. AI having use cases for megacorps doesn't mean that scammers won't leverage the hype to sell get rich quick scams.
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