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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#211

Post by danielvaughn »

mnd999 wrote: post #8
danielvaughn wrote: post #2

As someone who racked up nearly $80K in debt going to art school, I think they're making the right choice (mostly). In some cases it really makes sense to go to college, but it's a terrible model for many skills.

Did you have fun though? Because imho, that’s part of the point.

I made a lot of great memories, but I also would have made a lot of great memories in a different environment that didn't saddle me with a ton of debt. I do believe that having an extended period of time away from the "real world", where you can learn and figure things out, is useful. But (a) I don't think it's only applicable to young people, and (b) with just a little ingenuity you could replicate those same conditions for faarrrr cheaper.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#212

Post by twodave »

Mc91 wrote: post #9

I have been programming for a Fortune 500 company for four years. Not long ago, I applied for a job at another Fortune 500 company. HR really had only question for me, they saw on my resume I did not have a college degree listed, and did I have one? I said I went through most of college towards a Bachelors in Computer Science but dropped out before graduation. I did not get the job, although I don't know if that's wh…

Yeah, that's a bummer. Statistically speaking you're better off finishing it if you want to maximize the number of places that would be willing to hire you. That said, it can also work in your favor not to finish since it might weed out companies you wouldn't want to work for anyway. I'll say anecdotally of the half dozen or so places I've worked and been involved in hiring software developers--a college degree would only be relevant if you had no other experience to speak of. When I look at a resume I'm looking for "stuff this person has done". Even for entry level, I'd rather talk about a hobby project they spent some legitimate time on that whatever a candidate did in college.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#213

Post by ragtete »

Ekaros wrote: post #148
vasco wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have something to do with it in the sense that many people practice them and they need to practice them growing up in order to be able to do it as a job. You also cannot discount the impact of athletics programs on national defense and the programs that were done by multiple presidents to keep people active and healthy. Sports have this quality among cultural activities that they tend to improve your body and re…

But why connect it to education? Why not make it general program for all ages? Why not encourage community run programs for teams consisting for example company workers, or local neighbourhood teams? The education ends very quickly and it is the older than that people who could really benefit from these activities.

I don't know why folks put down college sports. If you do 4 years on a D1 team, you can certainly call yourself an expert in that sport. They're not just messing around, they're learning and developing their skills.

They may not go pro or use that knowledge directly later in life, but neither do a lot of degree holders in their field.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#214

Post by lotsofpulp »

clintonb wrote: post #155
karlkatzke wrote: post #81

Good. Needs to happen. Was talking to our HVAC repair dude. He makes as much as I do with a high school education and two years of trade school. Adjusting for age, he definitely makes more than I did at 34. No reason to send kids who want to work with their hands to four year colleges and saddle them with 100k in debt when they can work through a trade school, be done at 20, and have no student loan debt.

I assume you work in software. How hard does the HVAC guy work? I wager if you compared wages earned per hour worked (not just employed), you come out ahead. You probably beat doctors and lawyers, too. Large salaries mean nothing if you don’t account for how much effort is expended to earn the money.

I.e., pay to quality of life at work ratio (which includes volatility of pay).

This is always the answer to the question “why can’t we find workers for x job”.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#215

Post by klooney »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

> It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good.

That's the "finishing school for the elite" function. If you have to ask if you can afford that, you cannot.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#216

Post by finikytou »

American education became a joke. what used to be a beacon of light for people all over the world became a grotesque expensive joke and people don't want to pay six digits to be educated PC stuff that those uni are pushing now. especially when most of those kids are way more educated about this topics than the schools. what they want is to learn things that will help them in their professional life so that they can earn enough.

Europe is same btw. no surprise asian countries edge us into STEM.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#219

Post by ianmcgowan »

gautamdivgi wrote: post #28
Mc91 wrote: post #9

I have been programming for a Fortune 500 company for four years. Not long ago, I applied for a job at another Fortune 500 company. HR really had only question for me, they saw on my resume I did not have a college degree listed, and did I have one? I said I went through most of college towards a Bachelors in Computer Science but dropped out before graduation. I did not get the job, although I don't know if that's wh…

I hate to say this but you were probably an unfortunate bait for a labor certification of an existing employee on an h1b visa. That is generally the only reason companies will stick to the bscs requirement. Normally if you have requisite experience the degree - especially bscs is not needed.

Maybe at software companies, but if you're looking for corporate IT jobs (which can be pretty cush, referring back to the thread about that), a degree or sometimes even a masters is a requirement.

When I was a middle-manager in Bank IT, I would fight with HR about it, but they still used to filter out people without degrees or the "right" degrees.

I had a reverse filter - there was no point bringing someone with a CS degree in, they'd be bored to death in three months; but for people coming from helpdesk/tech support it was a huge step up in their careers/salary and they were fine with the "writing/supporting boring CRUD apps for 40 hours a week" trade-off.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#220

Post by [deleted] »

waboremo wrote: post #128
azinman2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MDs require more school on top of college; their major is often unrelated except they have to take pre-med classes. Often times people will go back to a community college or some other schooling option for those classes if they decide they want to go down that route. So you absolutely can be any of those majors and change your position later. Far better than say a communications major, which with psychology are the t…

Those that can self-educate effectively are also ones that would thrive in a proper high education system. Unfortunately, we're turning them away for various reasons (financial, lack of flexibility, etc) and filling rooms full of people who are there just because they were told to be there. It's quite horrendous, people in their 3+ years and they're still just going through the motions for the paper. If you're not th…

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