Earlier quoted context omitted.
The immediate aftermath of a catastrophic failure of the regulatory state seems like an odd moment to take smug shots at opponents of the regulatory state.
You seem confused. The problem here was de regulation of safety standards. This deregulation was thanks to lobbying , and strike breaking ; _not_ regulation. Hope this is clear, and not setting off your 'smug' trigger; because what I feel right now is fury, not smugness.
Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
211–220 of 226 posts
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#212I see all the staunch supporters of deregulation across the board that normally come out of the woodwork on HN are strangely absent.
Reminding me of my younger days, during my lolbertarian phase where I thought people would do the right thing and have safety procedures in place because "market forces" would shut them down if people died. To be that naive again...
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good summary here: https://twitter.com/RaleighFam/status/1622948184476483585 Fair point that it may explode anyway.
This is a good summary of the situation. One thing the speaker left out is that hydrochloric acid is heavier than air, so while the reaction does result in a bunch of hydrochloric acid, it should react with things in the local environment very quickly to make a hot mess of the immediate environment but not to spread out into the larger ecosystem.
Five cars of vinyl chloride, three cars of diethylene glycol, and two cars of oil are the problem children at this point. At least the quantities involved aren't too large, it wasn't a whole train of vinyl chloride.
Still preventable though and things aren't getting any safer from here if the railroads have anything to say about it. And the local wildlife getting sick is still concerning... if the measurements say everything is fine and the local wildlife is dying, you aren't measuring what needs to be measured.
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my town, population went down but children-per-family decreased even more, effectively raising the number of households/family-units that needed separate homes. A raw population count is not always what it seems.
If we take that view, we need population to fall by 40% just for house prices to not grow?
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're kidding yourself if you think the op was suggesting we abandon capitalism. This absolutist mindset has to stop. We can acknowledge our current system is flawed without suggested we abandon it entirely for something else. The reality is that our regulation of our system could be better. Your binary thinking is lazy and closes you off to the possibility that we could improve our system.
I gave two counter-examples of different economic systems. It’s clear capitalism isn’t the problem if you think about why those other systems failed.
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not that I disagree with you, but me and many others are planning our retirements accounts around assumptions of 8-9% growth. Stock market returns and real economic productivity aren't the same thing, but I think it would be deeply challenging for us to change course. Low growth creates a lot of new issues which are debatably worse than the axles-on-fire problem, but this is a conterfactual argument.
Is that 8-9% growth before or after inflation? Because if it's before, that's going to end up being only 3-4% at best. More and more I think people need to plan for retirement around expense reduction versus capital growth .
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re setting up a pretty direct moral quandary here. How many human beings should we be willing to poison to keep the stock market going up?
With apologies to Patrick McKenzie: the optimal amount of dead kids is non-zero, and I think the revealed preference of america as a whole is that we are comfortable with quite a lot of dead kids if it brings political stability and a modicum of personal comfort. School shootings, policing, our medical system, our political system itself (the uneven distribution of power between states), all of these suffer from the…
Change is generational, but at some point we truly may run out of generations.
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more complex and efficient work from individuals has lead to me cutting more corners than I ever wanted to and producing more questionable products and services in the name of efficiency. I read a while ago a perfect word to describe this world we're living in: crapitalism.
You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think the soviets or Chinese also don’t cut corners under their economic systems.
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think there's pushback because it's kind of a "just buy more money" solution. On the whole, the problem isn't that people are buying $70k trucks and escalades that's keeping them poor. It's not having enough income. The difference personally between $70k and $90k is massive and the difference between $90k and $120k is massive. That's the difference between underfunding my retirement and no savings and still being f…
This was a very well-written response to the parent commenter and to my own attitude to which the parent commenter was responding. > The middle-class lifestyle as we have come to know it basically requires you be in the top 10% of income earners in your local economy. Absolutely true. I've found that to not worry about any of (health, retirement, surprise bills, vehicles, housing) you need about $100k/year post-tax,…
I mean I just feel that on average you get what you incentivize. Yeah for any one person, advice can help them break the average but on the whole people respond how the system has encouraged them to respond. It's the same as the critique people make about communism... if your system requires people to go against human nature, it's not going to work. Individuals may, but on the whole, humans are gonna act like humans. Implying that people are doing it wrong personally because they're failing in a system in which the overwhelming majority of people are failing becomes personally offensive and that's why people react negatively.
The crushing underlying fact of american society is that the middle class isn't middle anymore, probably over half of people are working-poor at this point and there's really only a handful of middle-class left in america (in the "own a house, go on vacation once in a while, not worry about surprise bills" sense). And maybe that's part of why people react viscerally negatively to it too... nobody wants to think of themselves as lower-class and that's rubbed in your face when Ramsey tells them to live within their means. You can't afford that vacation and neither can your friends, you're all wage-slaves, just like 90% of america. Back onto your treadmill, hamster.
Building local communities and building for resiliency is really important, as another commenter was discussing. I have this early 80s tractor that I inherited from my grandparents, it's nothing special but it's had very little wear since my grandpa got alzheimers soon after and they started having it mowed by a service, and it's had some basic preventative maintenance (oil changes once a decade, new tires, etc) and I've found myself thinking that I probably should keep it around even if I upgrade to something newer. Because it's got a briggs+stratton 2-cyl boxer motor on a steel frame and it's going to be something I can find parts for forever and repair it if it comes down to it, and that's kind of a novelty in a world of cheap throwaway junk. Same for appliances, I have old 90s washer+dryer that came with the house and it's nothing particularly special, it's worn out and needs at least a couple hundred bucks of parts each, but I hear nothing but horror stories about the newer stuff. Or cars are another one... everything is digital now and not really intended for user service beyond changing the oil and brake pads and such. There is a small crossover between ESC (which is really important around here in winter) and the point everything became unserviceable and that "window of repairability" seems very desirable.
Societally we are just getting to this place where reliability and durability is something that's starting to nag at me, and it's interesting to hear I'm not the only one.
I have a veteran friend who is working to get his translator from afghanistan and his family a visa and get them moved over here... he's got a little farm so he'll have a place to put them. Same thing. I think people are starting to look over the cliff and worry about what comes after. And building local communities is going to be the ticket.
Re: Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
You seem confused. The problem here was de regulation of safety standards. This deregulation was thanks to lobbying , and strike breaking ; _not_ regulation. Hope this is clear, and not setting off your 'smug' trigger; because what I feel right now is fury, not smugness.
What deregulation are you referring to? And are you just extrapolating or did it directly cause this? I’m not seeing that in the article I read (which is not a his one because it’s unreadable on mobile for me)
Amid the lobbying blitz against stronger transportation safety regulations, Norfolk Southern paid executives millions and spent billions on stock buybacks — all while the company shed thousands of employees despite warnings that understaffing is intensifying safety risks. Norfolk Southern officials also fought off a shareholder initiative that could have required company executives to “assess, review, and mitigate risks of hazardous material transportation.”
... the Obama administration in 2014 proposed improving safety regulations for trains carrying petroleum and other hazardous materials. However, after industry pressure, the final measure ended up narrowly focused on the transport of crude oil and exempting trains carrying many other combustible materials, including the chemical involved in this weekend’s disaster.
Then came 2017: After rail industry donors delivered more than $6 million to GOP campaigns, the Trump administration — backed by rail lobbyists and Senate Republicans — rescinded part of that rule aimed at making better braking systems widespread on the nation’s rails.
Specifically, regulators killed provisions requiring rail cars carrying hazardous flammable materials to be equipped with electronic braking systems to stop trains more quickly than conventional air brakes. Norfolk Southern had previously touted the new technology — known as Electronically Controlled Pneumatic (ECP) brakes — for its “potential to reduce train stopping distances by as much as 60 percent over conventional air brake systems.”
But the company’s lobby group nonetheless pressed for the rule’s repeal, telling regulators that it would “impose tremendous costs without providing offsetting safety benefits.”
That argument won out with Trump officials — and the Biden administration has not moved to reinstate the brake rule or expand the kinds of trains subjected to tougher safety regulations.
“Would ECP brakes have reduced the severity of this accident? Yes,” Steven Ditmeyer, a former senior official at the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), told The Lever. “The railroads will test new features. But once they are told they have to do it… they don’t want to spend the money.”
Norfolk Southern did not answer questions about its efforts to weaken safety mandates. The company also did not answer questions about what kind of braking system was operating on the train that derailed in Ohio.
- from https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rule...