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Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

abc.net.au

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Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#211

Post by freeqaz »

Gravityloss wrote: post #97
defrost wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they certainly FUBAR'd and lost brownie points when they blew up Juukan Gorge. Let's not forget they're sitting on $64 billion US worth of Copper in the US on native lands either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juukan_Gorge Today I learned.

Holy crap!

> "The gorge is known primarily for a cave that was the only inland site in Australia with evidence of continuous human occupation for over 46,000 years, including through the last Ice Age. The cave was permanently destroyed by mining company Rio Tinto in May 2020."

And

> "On 11 September 2020, it was announced that, as a result of the destruction at Juukan Gorge, CEO Jean-Sebastien Jacques and two other Rio Tinto executives would step down."

That's good at least.

Thank you for sharing

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#212

Post by Merad »

perihelions wrote: post #101

Is the idea of blameless postmortem that exotic in the general public? If I hear that a critical safety system failed, my first association isn't "find the individual closest to responsibility, and look into whether a criminal prosecution is feasible". - "We have the ability to prosecute under the radiation safety act and we will certainly look at such prosecutions, and we've done that in the past," [Chief Health Off…

At what point do you think punishment is warranted when companies or individuals break regulations resulting in people being placed at risk? This isn't software where the impacts are some user inconvenience and maybe a bit of lost revenue. If this incident had gone just a little differently it could easily have resulted in deaths, people receiving massive radiation doses, or even hundreds or thousands of people getting enough exposure to raise their risk of cancer. Regulations around handling radioactive material are a lot like aviation regulations, they tend to be written in blood.

This is a short list of major radiation exposure incidents in the past few decades:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciudad_Ju%C3%A1rez_cobalt-60_c...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia_accident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kramatorsk_radiological_accide...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_of_radioactive_material_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acerinox_accident

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samut_Prakan_radiation_acciden...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lia_radiological_accident

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#213

Post by mhb »

twawaaay wrote: post #192
mhb wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What an engineer thinks: "Why not attach this thing to a beacon so that it can't be lost?" Or put cameras everywhere to deter crime.

I am not asking to limit anybody's freedom. A beacon would be attached to radiation source. Unless you are an individual who walks around with a highly toxic, highly dangerous radiation source, requiring it to have a beacon will not limit your freedom. As to putting cameras to deter crime, they are shown not to work. The crime just moves to where there are no cameras. Or stupid people will crime anyway. US is leading…

Right. but things they have in common are questionable cost/benefit, and, undoubtedly, unintended consequences.

It also is not a better way to solve the problem. Now someone has to replace the batteries of the "beacon" or remember to charge it? How are they going to remember? Why not just have that same person remember to check that the source is secured properly?

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#214

Post by mikem170 »

mulmen wrote: post #201
twawaaay wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was literally lost. A properly engineered beacon cannot be lost this way as long as it operates.

> He said a search vehicle was driving past at 70 kilometres per hour on the Great Northern Highway when a detection device revealed radiation. They found it because it is literally a beacon. Beacons do nothing to prevent loss, they only facilitate relocation.

I think the idea would be to have a gieger counter in the vehicle near the pellet that can detect the pellet radiation, and sound an alarm in the vehicle if the pellet radiation is no longer detected, so the driver knows immediately that the pellet has become unsecured.

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#215

Post by undersuit »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #203
I-M-S wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Naturally occurring radiation might play a part in human tendency to regard certain places as haunted.

Actually "haunted" locations are often linked to carbon monoxide and infrasound, IIRC. We generally don't blame ghosts for mysterious burns or other signs of radiation sickness.

We don't, but a society that doesn't know about radiation or even elementary particles may.

The village doctor in the 1500s diagnosing radiation sickness would be even more of a quack than the one that doesn't apply enough leeches.

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#216

Post by O__________O »

>> Its loss sparked an unprecedented public safety warning over 1,400km […] a search vehicle was driving past at 70 kilometres per hour on the Great Northern Highway when a detection device revealed radiation. […] 20 metre "hot zone" has been set up around the capsule to ensure the public's safety.

Why did it take 5-days to find it? Even just two vehicles driving from either start or end of the path should have covered the path in 10-hours; based on the actual location, it should have been found in 3-4 hours.

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#217

Post by s1artibartfast »

avereveard wrote: post #140
defrost wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slave labor under the Romans at Rio Tinto from 206 BCE onwards for two hundred years, or the 1888 Zalamea massacre, or the still linguring toxic legacy of the Panguna mine in PNG? It's such a persistent ongoing problem with mining that I'm personally more inclined to blame the collective detached nature of consumers that demand products and yet turn a blind eye to the sourcing of that which they demand.

Blaming customers for companies malfeasance must have been one of the greatest deflection tactics ever invented and it saddens me deeply when it gets parroted verbatim by the general populace.

I think it is a fair criticism. Individual consumers surely have some culpability, whether they are buying a stolen iPhone or a stolen kidney.

I think the mistake people make is treating responsibility as if it is a limited resource and can only be applied to the consumer or the producer.

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#218

Post by twawaaay »

mhb wrote: post #213
twawaaay wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not asking to limit anybody's freedom. A beacon would be attached to radiation source. Unless you are an individual who walks around with a highly toxic, highly dangerous radiation source, requiring it to have a beacon will not limit your freedom. As to putting cameras to deter crime, they are shown not to work. The crime just moves to where there are no cameras. Or stupid people will crime anyway. US is leading…

Right. but things they have in common are questionable cost/benefit, and, undoubtedly, unintended consequences. It also is not a better way to solve the problem. Now someone has to replace the batteries of the "beacon" or remember to charge it? How are they going to remember? Why not just have that same person remember to check that the source is secured properly?

> Right. but things they have in common are questionable cost/benefit, and, undoubtedly, unintended consequences.

Attaching a beacon to highly dangerous radiation source is questionable, and has "undoubtedly" unintended consequences?

Looks like searching for a problem where there isn't one.

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#219

Post by CSMastermind »

aeharding wrote: post #178
igbk wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the extend and target of postmortem blame varies considerably from culture to culture. An anecdote from the railroad traffic between Germany and Denmark: "[In 2019, a DB Cargo freight train in Denmark caused an accident with a passenger train on its way to Copenhagen after a truck trailer flew off the freight train due to high winds. The German side was keen to find out who was responsible at the lowest lev…

https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/There-Are-No-Accident...

Matt Parker of Youtube fame also wrote a book called Humble Pi: When Math Goes Wrong in the Real World which covers several post-mortems from the engineering space.

I found it interesting that he compared and contrasted the airline industry where failures are seen as systemic (don't blame the pilot, blame the system) and the medical industry where failures are typically seen as having personal liability (blame the surgeon).

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/610964/humble-pi-by...

Re: Missing radioactive capsule found in WA outback after frantic search

#220

Post by Someone »

Ekaros wrote: post #209
Someone wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it already was larger; It was part of a “density gauge” ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_densitometry ). It’s not as if somebody but this in a trouser pocket (would be extremely foolish, of course) or laid it on the car’s dashboard (slightly less foolish, but still extremely so) and then lost it. I wouldn’t know whether the pictures on that Wikipedia page resemble what this was on, but I expect it to have…

Now I wonder why wasn't it glued, packed or something in larger material. I think there should be something light and relatively non-opaque for radiation.

I haven’t read any indication that safety rules weren’t followed, so presumably because whatever it was packed in was deemed safe enough.
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