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The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

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Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#211

Post by shagie »

yesimahuman wrote: post #143
cedivad wrote: post #123

This 50 minutes-old post with 145 points has been nuked from the first page. And the second, and the third. lol.

I noticed that. What do you think the reason is for that? Protecting YC-invested crypto companies? It’s very unfortunate because it was a well written recap of recent events.

> What do you think the reason is for that?

> > This 50 minutes-old post with 145 points has been nuked from the first page.

---

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16020089

> dang on Dec 28, 2017

> ...

> We tend to call it the 'overheated discussion detector' these days, since it detects more than flamewars. However, that phrase is more awkward to say than 'flamewar detector'. If anyone can come up with a better name I'd love to hear it.

> Turning that software off is not an option, because HN would be overwhelmingly more dominated by flamewars if we did so. It's not primarily the individual threads that I fear, it's the systemic effects of having them be more dominant. HN exists most of all for the quieter, deeper, more out-of-the-way finds that would be the first to get excluded under such a regime. That would really be an existential risk to HN.

---

This post got too much attention, too quickly, with too many votes and comments. Just look at all of the flagged, dead, green name, comments that have gotten significant downvotes too.

The moderation work needed to maintain the site if this isn't down ranked is in excess of the amount of value that the post brings to the site.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#212

Post by andirk »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #129
lrvick wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a fixed total amount of Bitcoin that will ever exist, and they are released the the market over time. Bitcoin is not inflationary.

> fixed total amount of Bitcoin that will ever exist It has a fixed supply. (Currently. An unknown number of miners could always increase it.) > Bitcoin is not inflationary Of course it is. One Bitcoin buys 75% fewer goods and services than it did a year ago. Taking advantage of people who mistake money supply for inflation is one of crypto’s scams.

When one says bitcoin is not inflationary, they mean that the supply does not inflate. You are accurate that bitcoin's purchasing power can wane aka deflate. In my opinion and many others it is moot because everything deflates. As far as we know, there is not a single thing in existence that is void of inflation by your usage of the term. Therefore, we move beyond that version of the definition to the practical and useful definition which is that it cannot be added to numerically.

English is my first language and those sentences are crap, but I think you get what I mean.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#213

Post by JumpCrisscross »

andirk wrote: post #212
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fixed total amount of Bitcoin that will ever exist It has a fixed supply. (Currently. An unknown number of miners could always increase it.) > Bitcoin is not inflationary Of course it is. One Bitcoin buys 75% fewer goods and services than it did a year ago. Taking advantage of people who mistake money supply for inflation is one of crypto’s scams.

When one says bitcoin is not inflationary, they mean that the supply does not inflate. You are accurate that bitcoin's purchasing power can wane aka deflate. In my opinion and many others it is moot because everything deflates. As far as we know, there is not a single thing in existence that is void of inflation by your usage of the term. Therefore, we move beyond that version of the definition to the practical and u…

> When one says bitcoin is not inflationary, they mean that the supply does not inflate

This is wrong. Not matter of opinion wrong, factually wrong.

> bitcoin's purchasing power can wane aka deflate

This is also wrong. Waning purchasing power is the definition of inflation. Bitcoin was marketed as an inflation hedge. It hyperinflated. Solving that by redefining inflation is dishonest.

> the practical and useful definition which is that it cannot be added to numerically

This is the opposite. It’s taking the practical definition, which relates to purchasing power, and replacing it with a technical curiosity. Which is also, again, wrong: a small group of miners can amend the protocol to keep the gravy train running.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#214

Post by IncRnd »

monero-xmr wrote: post #120
jeremyjh wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's why they accept it at Amazon and Alibaba right?

Here is a list of services that accept crypto directly https://kycnot.me/

A crypto exchange or vpn is not quite the same as a store that sells goods like groceries, clothes or electronics or services like a lawyer's time, a doctor's visit or a haircut. I don't see any mainstream websites listed on that website. Regular people are unable to use crypto as money for regular things.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#215

Post by IncRnd »

luckylion wrote: post #181
jeremyjh wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that's why they accept it at Amazon and Alibaba right?

Amazon doesn't accept cash. Is cash not money? They don't accept $foreignCurrency either, is that no longer money when you cross the border? Or do you mean "money is what you can use to pay your taxes"? That works to exclude crypto, at least for most of the world.

Of course Amazon accepts cash. Cash on Delivery is one way. [1] Other ways are listed on Amazon's webpage entitled "Shop on Amazon, pay in cash". [2] Also, Amazon has teamed up with Western Union for your cash oriented shopping needs. [3]

[1] https://www.amazon.eg/-/en/gp/help/customer/display.html?nod...

[2] https://smile.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=19428273011&sa-no-re...

[3] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/09/18/can-you-shop...

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#216

Post by koonsolo »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #170
koonsolo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me how a tech/startup oriented forum like HN is so negative towards crypto. I think it's insane that someone invented an algorithm to transfer value over the internet, without the involvement of a central party. Basically as soon as it has a tiny bit of value, you can transfer it, and so it has value. It goes so far that you could store the private key in your head, and therefore use your head as…

Is it though? I am pretty sure that building an anonymous payment system for illegal trades is possible without crypto. I have not seen a legitimate use of crypto yet. Not even once.

> I am pretty sure that building an anonymous payment system for illegal trades is possible without crypto.

How? And then it turns out this system is owned by the FBI, like the ANOM phone. Oops.

At least with Monero you know it's peer reviewed, and can check what is running on your system.

You see that is the strange part here. There is a cool algorithmic solution, and HN says "Nah, some central authority could do that with software too".

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#217

Post by koonsolo »

XajniN wrote: post #189
koonsolo wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always surprises me how a tech/startup oriented forum like HN is so negative towards crypto. I think it's insane that someone invented an algorithm to transfer value over the internet, without the involvement of a central party. Basically as soon as it has a tiny bit of value, you can transfer it, and so it has value. It goes so far that you could store the private key in your head, and therefore use your head as…

> It always surprises me how a tech/startup oriented forum like HN is so negative towards crypto. Maybe because people here are more likely to understand it? Edit: added a missing quote

So your claim is that all the developers working on Bitcoin, Ethereum and Monero are not able to understand it?

I have a master's degree in CS, and I'm not able to understand it?

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#218

Post by monero-xmr »

IncRnd wrote: post #214
monero-xmr wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is a list of services that accept crypto directly https://kycnot.me/

A crypto exchange or vpn is not quite the same as a store that sells goods like groceries, clothes or electronics or services like a lawyer's time, a doctor's visit or a haircut. I don't see any mainstream websites listed on that website. Regular people are unable to use crypto as money for regular things.

VPN industry is multi-billion, crypto exchanges are multi-billion, hosting is multi-billion. These are real industries - I mean a lot of people on HN are employed in companies that support and provide data / server hosting.

It starts with digital services and it spiders out from there. Enthusiasts who own retail stores accept crypto as a novelty or marketing strategy, but in 25 years it could be much more common.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#219

Post by monero-xmr »

shagie wrote: post #209
sershe wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does Amazon accept cash on delivery? Also, by this logic Amazon accepts electronic cash that can be "bought" with crypto, right? Maybe dollars are just gift cards for bitcoin :P

https://www.amazon.eg/-/en/gp/help/customer/display.html?nod... > Cash on Delivery is available as a payment method for fulfilled by Amazon and some seller fulfilled items. If you have Gift Card balance in your account, you can redeem it and pay the remaining amount using Cash on Delivery payment method.

It’s quite easy to convert crypto into Amazon gift cards, which can then be used to buy stuff on Amazon. So it’s not exactly a big hop to go from crypto to Amazon.

Re: The entire crypto ecosystem is a ponzi

#220

Post by cm277 »

monero-xmr wrote: post #18

Cryptocurrency in its purest is money not issued or controlled by a government. Instead the supply inflation is controlled by transparent rules that are plain to see. “Protocol-based finance” vs. the existing government-based finance. Now there are all manner of divergences from the above paragraph. Coins that are totally controlled and issued by a small group or company. Black box rules rather than transparent. Ther…

I used to agree with you; but I think this line of thinking takes a (core) feature of money (trust in its value) and reduces the whole thing down to just it. Fiat money has another core feature in its definition: that you can pay taxes to a government using that currency. Similarly, equity in a company comes with dividends: a core cashflow that you can predict based on P&L. Trust in their current (and most importantly future) value, is a (big) aspect of it, but not the only one: there's actually a predictable "base" value that you can use to calculate a floor to that value. The future value is just the ceiling to that prediction.

Crypto is only trust. Without that social trust, there's no minimum value. That doesn't mean there is no value, just that the floor can go away, that the entire thing is much more volatile. So basically, gambling. This is not a value judgement btw, gambling and volatile assets can be fun and profitable; they are just not currencies.

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