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Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

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Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#211

Post by systemvoltage »

actuator wrote: post #55
systemvoltage wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

If we can't even defend weak from a bully, what's the point of anything; specially when they seem to be asking for help. There are much unjustified and unasked for interventions that have been done even in the recent past. Are all our morals and ideals just for convenience.

There are a lot of bullies (NK, Iran, Russia, China). It is not possible to meddle our way in it. This is and has been the classic liberal stance since the Cold War and the Vietnam War protests. The problem is that progressives of today are unrecognizable from the classic liberals, in the exact same fashion as the right wing has shown all of their cards of American exceptionalism and Trumpism. One side contradicts itself when it wants to meddle in wars and when it doesn't. The other side is apologetic about megalomaniac that Putin is.

We need to get back to basics of building exceptional defense, innovating and stop being a world police.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#212

Post by voisin »

ROTMetro wrote: post #198
whatshisface wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered if the NATO system would be better-designed if it had specific defense requirements from all countries, but I presently think its current structure (where Germany is allowed to reduce military spending because they're surrounded on all sides by other NATO countries) prevents a worse outcome, where they'd find it in their interest to leave NATO and get the buffer states anyway. Voluntary multilateral t…

It does have specific requirements. It just doesn't meet them.

No penalties for not meeting requirements sounds like these requirements are suggestions.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#213

Post by ROTMetro »

causi wrote: post #22
belter wrote: post #5

As I wrote in another thread today, current EU and US leaders are asleep at the wheel. We have a different dynamic. Talking about sanctions looks almost pathetic. The analogy here is, you live in a community and one of your neighbors just lost it completely and is shooting and shelling another neighbor. Not to raise the hostilities...you scream at him he wont be invited anymore for the Christmas party and you will co…

Seven hundred billion dollars a year and we can't even defend the weak unless it looks profitable on the balance sheet. Never have I been more ashamed to be American than I was yesterday.

The weak that we encouraged to poke the bear and whom we promised to protect when we took away their biggest deternat (nukes). Here's current Presidential Press Secretary Jenn Psaki in 2014 defending a leaked State Department phone call deciding what people should have power in Ukraine https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a... No matter your stand on if we should defend them, as American's we should feel ashamed of our encouraging Ukraine into this position without having their backs. If we didn't want to get involved we shouldn't have, you know, gotten involved.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#214

Post by jopsen »

cjblomqvist wrote: post #143

There's a lot of comments about how outrageous the lack of a harsher response (in particular the lack of military action) from the west/NATO/USA is. But, whatabout the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? Weren't they quite similar (the big difference being that those countries were not close to the US geographically and not really posing a big threat). Why was those invasions ok but not this one? Just to make clear: I…

> But, whatabout the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan?

"whatabout" doesn't justify anything else. But I'll play.

In both cases, there was a broad coalition. Troops didn't start an invasion without clear demands. Russia lied about their demands, said their troop deployment was for exercises. Until recently they maintained they weren't going to invade.

Say what you want about Iraq and Afghanistan, but the intention of the coalition forces was clear.

It's also worth noting that:

(1) Afghanistan was self-defense, perhaps an overreaction (that can be debated).

(2) An American president actually admitted that Iraq was a mistake. Did it take 6 years for Obama to get elected.

To be clear I don't think Iraq or Afghanistan wars were completely justified (or good ideas). But there was plenty of diplomacy around it (all diplomatic attempts by Russia in Ukraine have been disingenuous). Russia didn't threaten the coalition forces with sanctions prior to the invasion.

> There's a lot of comments about how outrageous the lack of a harsher response (in particular the lack of military action) from the west/NATO/USA is.

There would probably be more outrage, if there was an intervention :D

I'm certainly not arguing that it would wise for NATO to intervene.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#215

Post by [deleted] »

pakitan wrote: post #51
bjoli wrote: post #9

Well then, Congratulations Russia! You have just given the Swedish NATO-movement more support than they could have ever mustered themselves! I have always been very sceptical of NATO membership, but the last month I changed opinion.

You mean so far you've lived a peaceful life and were skeptical of joining NATO but now that you've seen what Russia did to Ukraine, you're tempted to share their fate?

[deleted]

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#216

Post by toxik »

bjtitus wrote: post #172
pacetherace wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? He is fighting to have veto over who gets to join NATO. It will be a victory for him if he is able to freeze NATO membership to the current number. Russian economy maybe be ruined for next decade or longer and most likely Putin will be dead or retired by then but he would be looked in Russia as the guy who keep Russia relevant. Putin is embarrassing US and NATO by destroying Ukraine while they watch helplessl…

You replied to a report about two more Northern European countries joining NATO who seem to have been against it before by saying Putin is freezing NATO membership where it is? It seems like things are going completely opposite of the way you describe them.

Sweden and Finland is NOT joining NATO, if that is what you think.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#217

Post by dragontamer »

jacquesm wrote: post #202
dragontamer wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the problem. We already learned what happens next. No. You missed the lesson. USA is largely a peaceful nation that's many thousands of miles away from this conflict. It takes an incredible amount of evil before the US people are roused into action. The US people in 1939 or 1940 weren't ignorant. Even as Hitler rose and took over large swaths of Europe, the US citizen was not roused into action. It still too…

> It takes an incredible amount of evil before the US people are roused into action. Fair enough. Which is why the world stood with you after 9/11. And this is a far larger event.

I'm not ignorant of the ISAF / Operation Enduring Freedom if that's what you're referencing. And I do think that's a good point you bring up.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#218

Post by yokaze »

pacetherace wrote: post #98
ch4s3 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's starting to look like Putin may have miscalculated here.

Really? He is fighting to have veto over who gets to join NATO. It will be a victory for him if he is able to freeze NATO membership to the current number. Russian economy maybe be ruined for next decade or longer and most likely Putin will be dead or retired by then but he would be looked in Russia as the guy who keep Russia relevant. Putin is embarrassing US and NATO by destroying Ukraine while they watch helplessl…

> I have utmost sympathy for Ukraine but where were the angry people when US attacked Iraq?

"On February 15, millions of people protested, in approximately 800 cities around the world. Listed by the 2004 Guinness Book of Records as the largest protest in human history". There is a whole page on all the protest for that particular topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#219

Post by jleyank »

iso1631 wrote: post #210
jleyank wrote: post #203

Perhaps it’s time to make a European force that can share assets with nato but is independent of the whims of the us. They’re too willing to play their own game or just take their ball and go home.

Whims of the US? In what way. Article 5 was invoked once, for September 11th. I don't have too much problem with that in principle (although worth noting that other NATO countries don't invoke it when foreign terrorists attacked their cities). The only country I don't think would respond to an Article 5 invocation from a Russian invasion would be Turkey.

Trying to drag it in ways it thinks best (such as the Middle East) or threatening to leave entirely like the Orange guy was mentioning. The battleground is in the Polish or German plains so one would think they have the most to lose (again). Recall, Germany was only united in 1870, and Poland was both huge and missing in Central Europe over the centuries.

Re: Finland or Sweden joining NATO would spark Russian response, Russia warns

#220

Post by ROTMetro »

SllX wrote: post #130
actuator wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we can't even defend weak from a bully, what's the point of anything; specially when they seem to be asking for help. There are much unjustified and unasked for interventions that have been done even in the recent past. Are all our morals and ideals just for convenience.

This isn’t the goddamned playground with a bigger kid picking on a smaller kid. These are two nations at War and nobody has a defense pact or commitment with Ukraine because the concern was that making that pact would inevitably lead to a Russia-NATO war. Our morals and ideals are not universally shared by our adversaries, and our adversaries include two Nuclear powers with ICBMs. One of them is the instigator in thi…

Just for clarity, Ukraine pleaded for the defense pact, we refused it because the other side scared us too much. Sure seems like a playground bully. But yeah, stand by the 'we didn't get involved because then Russia would invade', wooh, that worked out well. I think the path you support is leading to a more unstable nuclear environment then if we would have been firm. But sure, it's just Czechoslovakia, I mean Ukraine they are after (never mind their actual words). And this doesn't destabilize the whole Taiwan China calculus (oh wait, it does). Yep, safer.
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