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Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

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Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#211

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

mistersquid wrote: post #122
dsign wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3D models are very variable: some are defined with just triangles, some include quads, some are NURBS or subdivision surfaces. Sometimes two sides per polygon are considered, sometimes just one. Ways of navigating a 3D model also vary wildly. Sometimes you just want to pivot/rotate them around a little, but sometimes "walking" inside them makes more sense. Then there are materials and lights, and here people go wild…

> In our "current world", if you want a 3D viewer, you use WebGL and Javascript, and voila, what you get is what you see in all browsers that support WebGL. Under "Considered Alternatives" [0] > 4. Do not add a new element. Pass enough data to WebGL to render accurately > As noted above, this would require any site that wants to use an AR experience to request and have the user trust that site enough to allow them ac…

I’m not convinced a script-less element protects privacy: recall that subtle differences in how different machines (running the same browser) render certain operations, it’s a given that the same underlying hardware differences will lead to subtle 3D model rendering differences (e.g. subpixel antialiasing, measuring shader render time, etc) and thus add another way for unscrupulous websites to fingerprint users.

Another issue is that it’s inevitable that support for fragment and vertex shaders will be added, which is another huge issue (MS put-off supporting WebGL for years out of plausibly legitimate concerns about possible vulnerabilities in WebGL shaders).

…of course that’s all fine on Apple’s uniform hardware: fingerprinting MacBook users with their identical GPUs will be harder compared to PC users with their huge matrix of possible GPU chipsets, GPU drivers, and GPU performance/quality settings - which all affect how simple 3D models are rendered.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#212

Post by 8note »

ruined wrote: post #119
Jasper_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Years of trying to treat models like images shows us it's a poor idea. Maybe now with Disney/Epic PBR being the standard material model it's closer but, that Panic truck? Good luck defining the exact lighting for that so it renders correctly and consistently. The spec text even says that the lighting environment will come at a later date. So, no, you don't seemingly have any control over one of the most important par…

>This proposal does not aim to define a mechanism that allows the creation of a 3D scene within a browser using declarative primitives or a programmatic API. the goal isn't to fully render scenes, it's simply to gain the ability to include a 3d resource in the page semantically. heavier solutions to render scenes already exist.

Isn't that to say it adds a model that you can't see? It's just an invisible element on the page? If it's not being rendered, what are you seeing? If it is being rendered, what are the shaders? Camera? Etc that webgl solve? Or are these not essential complexity?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#213

Post by 8note »

jeroenhd wrote: post #100
stefan_ wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems history teaches us the exact opposite. Nobody uses the native input elements because they can't be sufficiently styled and customized but simultaneously have significant behavior differences between browsers. They also of course languished for the longest time, at points looking out of place with the browser chrome itself.

As a user, I curse every time a website decides that my theme is incompatible with my computer's theme and that my scroll bar should in fact be bright red and 1 pixel wide just like on the designer's Macbook, and that buttons should look exactly like tabs, links, checkboxes and radio boxes because that's what the brand designer wanted. Native component's can't be styled because of very good reasons and unless you're…

What's the tag for the native button that shows the up votes and downvotes on HN? Is it like or something?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#214

Post by 8note »

soylentgraham wrote: post #107
dangerface wrote: post #68

I think apple should just fix their webgl implementation. They seem to be missing a fundamental feature of the web it's interactive. They have an interactive attribute for the tag but no description of what this means? What does it mean to interact with a 3d model? Can 3d model interaction be accurately defined in a single attribute? Why not just use javascript for that logic? The whole point of having multi media li…

Its a few lines of code... for a coder, and even then, its 100 lines of setup, shaders, model loading. Vs a single tag to embed a model. For a non-coder. You dont have to know how to encode/decode videos to add video to a page. Im surprised it's taken this long. (Whether it'll turn out good, not sure, but it will definitely be adopted, and fast)

Is it actually that easy though? Or is all that setup actually useful?

If it's not needed, why do the setup in the webGL API?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#215

Post by 8note »

imwillofficial wrote: post #64
dangerface wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WebGL exists, why do we need a budget restricted version of a model viewer in the browser? WebGL support on safari is ropey at best why would apple implement a standard written by some one else when they can create a new standard no one asked for?

Proposing adding something to the HTML spec is not “creating a new standard no one asked for” Don’t be deceptive. Inaccurate generalizations and hyperbole add nothing to the discussion.

Who asked for it?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#216

Post by 8note »

atom_arranger wrote: post #75
adamsvystun wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly the same, but a similar question is then: "Canvas exists, why do we need an image element?"

I see a future where with some changes made to improve A11Y webpages are entirely rendered in WebGL.

What does A11y stand for? availability? Something not in English?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#217

Post by [deleted] »

gruez wrote: post #81
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, the dev. Not you the client, hence the user. It's closed software by design, and we all have seen where it leads to.

>You, the dev. As per the parent comment, it's not exposed to the javascript running on the page, which is arguably the "dev" in this case. >Not you the client, hence the user. I fail to see how it being exposed to the javascript running on the page or not makes a meaningful difference to the user. Are we expecting the average user to interact with the page via the developer console or something? >and we all have see…

[deleted]

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#218

Post by leppr »

phkahler wrote: post #159
JusticeJuice wrote: post #50

Based on the comments so far, I think I'm in the minority who think this would be a good feature for the web. This proposal might not be perfect, but I think the idea is great. There's lots of good reasons to semantically want to embed a 3d model in a page, like any other type of media. Say you're writing a course explaining how differential gears work - a 3d model of that could be really handy to look at to learn. A…

>> But wow you gotta get a lot of JS slapped together to just get something rendering. Or you can just model your item in solvespace (or link an STL file) and export it as HTML. Done. https://solvespace.com/index.pl Examples: http://m-labs.hk/software/solvespace/

> WebGL export using Three.js, which is how the interactive models on this page work

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#219

Post by 8note »

marcellus23 wrote: post #56
stefan_ wrote: post #8

WebGL exists, why do we need a budget restricted version of a model viewer in the browser? None of the motivations are at all convincing. Should browsers now be obliged to integrate with VR headsets?

Can you explain the steps necessary to display a 3D model using WebGL? (without using any 3rd party libraries). Could it possibly be easier than just pointing `src` to the URL of a model file?

Wouldn't an equivalent experience be with no webgl used at all?

Get to see a nice blank screen for both. Once you fiddle with all the settings so you aren't looking out from the inside of a monochrome polygon, you're going to approach the same complexity as the webgl version

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#220

Post by phkahler »

leppr wrote: post #218
phkahler wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But wow you gotta get a lot of JS slapped together to just get something rendering. Or you can just model your item in solvespace (or link an STL file) and export it as HTML. Done. https://solvespace.com/index.pl Examples: http://m-labs.hk/software/solvespace/

> WebGL export using Three.js, which is how the interactive models on this page work

Yes, it does the slapping together for you.
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