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Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

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Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#61

Post by dangerface »

snet0 wrote: post #10
raxxorrax wrote: post #2

> Privacy considerations Rendered data is not exposed to / extractable by the page in this proposal, so no tainting is required. We do expect this would require extensions to Fetch (a new destination type), Content Security Policy (a new policy directive), and likely a few others. I do buy 3d model data occasionally (hobby, not for professional uses). I think most stores obfustcate the data somehow although I never t…

My understanding is basically that DRM is the technology that permits the existence of Netflix and similar. Perhaps I just lack a strength of principle, but I don't see why you'd remove one of the most-enjoyed aspects of the internet for the sake of uh... some kind of privacy-adjacent something?

Netflix make money from their subscription service not DRM. I can easily torrent anything I watch on netflix but I watch it on netflix because its easier. Thats why I pay for netflix its not because their DRM prevents me from pirating anything.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#62

Post by ohgodplsno »

moron4hire wrote: post #6
jpm48 wrote: post #5

Interesting they show support for USD(Z) in the example. USD will be the standard for most VFX houses and make tooling for various web based systems so much easier.

We have a 3D model format for the web in glTF. This is Apple having Not Invented Here Syndrome again. USD was developed at Pixar, of which Steve Jobs was the founding investor. Apple is the only one who wants USDZ on the Web. Everyone else is already using glTF.

USD is widely used in all industrites, from video games to archviz to 3D rendering. If anything, glTF is the niche format.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#63

Post by thrower123 »

marcellus23 wrote: post #56
stefan_ wrote: post #8

WebGL exists, why do we need a budget restricted version of a model viewer in the browser? None of the motivations are at all convincing. Should browsers now be obliged to integrate with VR headsets?

Can you explain the steps necessary to display a 3D model using WebGL? (without using any 3rd party libraries). Could it possibly be easier than just pointing `src` to the URL of a model file?

What's the format of the 3D model? Are you going to build in support for all of the dozens of model formats that are in common use in every browser?

Are you going to specify yet another new 3D model format as a standard target for browser to support?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#64

Post by imwillofficial »

dangerface wrote: post #51
stefan_ wrote: post #8

WebGL exists, why do we need a budget restricted version of a model viewer in the browser? None of the motivations are at all convincing. Should browsers now be obliged to integrate with VR headsets?

> WebGL exists, why do we need a budget restricted version of a model viewer in the browser? WebGL support on safari is ropey at best why would apple implement a standard written by some one else when they can create a new standard no one asked for?

Proposing adding something to the HTML spec is not “creating a new standard no one asked for”

Don’t be deceptive. Inaccurate generalizations and hyperbole add nothing to the discussion.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#65

Post by dsign »

JusticeJuice wrote: post #50

Based on the comments so far, I think I'm in the minority who think this would be a good feature for the web. This proposal might not be perfect, but I think the idea is great. There's lots of good reasons to semantically want to embed a 3d model in a page, like any other type of media. Say you're writing a course explaining how differential gears work - a 3d model of that could be really handy to look at to learn. A…

3D models are very variable: some are defined with just triangles, some include quads, some are NURBS or subdivision surfaces. Sometimes two sides per polygon are considered, sometimes just one.

Ways of navigating a 3D model also vary wildly. Sometimes you just want to pivot/rotate them around a little, but sometimes "walking" inside them makes more sense.

Then there are materials and lights, and here people go wild with ideas.

In our "current world", if you want a 3D viewer, you use WebGL and Javascript, and voila, what you get is what you see in all browsers that support WebGL.

> But wow you gotta get a lot of JS slapped together to just get something rendering

Indeed. But there are some quite nice 3D model viewers out there ready to roll, easy to embed, and full of features.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#66

Post by imwillofficial »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #18
stefan_ wrote: post #8

WebGL exists, why do we need a budget restricted version of a model viewer in the browser? None of the motivations are at all convincing. Should browsers now be obliged to integrate with VR headsets?

Not only WebGL, but WebGPU is also in the works. I simply don't understand this proposal.

When I don’t understand something, I ask lots of questions.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#67

Post by imwillofficial »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #55
gruez wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I still think this is a very bad proposal. Why compare something with an image and then disallow it to be treated like other ressources? This is typically bad corporate influence on the web. Because webgl fingerprinting. Also, I'm not sure why you think not being able to extract the data using javascript is "bad corporate influence on the web" or" DRM". you can still do whatever you want. The models are freely avail…

You, the dev. Not you the client, hence the user. It's closed software by design, and we all have seen where it leads to.

Closed software? You mean being used by every person on earth every day of their lives?

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#68

Post by dangerface »

I think apple should just fix their webgl implementation.

They seem to be missing a fundamental feature of the web it's interactive. They have an interactive attribute for the tag but no description of what this means? What does it mean to interact with a 3d model? Can 3d model interaction be accurately defined in a single attribute? Why not just use javascript for that logic?

The whole point of having multi media like a 3d model on a website is so people can interact with it. If the interaction is as simple as spin the model there are three.js and a million other javascript libraries that can do that in a few lines of code.

Another fundamental the proposal doesn't address is the model format? As far as I know all model file formats are proprietary OBJ is probably the closest to an open standard and its anything but standard. Another issue that javascript easily solves.

A fake problem their solution found is DRM, obviously the DRM could be removed as easy as HLS encryption (Super easy, did it yesterday). The main problem here is again the file format, no one would share their 3dmax file because its fucking huge they would export a low poly model for web that would be useless to anyone wanting to steal your model.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#69

Post by Bigpet »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #62
moron4hire wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a 3D model format for the web in glTF. This is Apple having Not Invented Here Syndrome again. USD was developed at Pixar, of which Steve Jobs was the founding investor. Apple is the only one who wants USDZ on the Web. Everyone else is already using glTF.

USD is widely used in all industrites, from video games to archviz to 3D rendering. If anything, glTF is the niche format.

USD, glTF and COLLADA are all "widely used" in some parts. I would like to see some data that USD is more popular than the other ones.

Re: Apple proposes adding "model" element to HTML that displays 3D content

#70

Post by marcellus23 »

thrower123 wrote: post #63
marcellus23 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain the steps necessary to display a 3D model using WebGL? (without using any 3rd party libraries). Could it possibly be easier than just pointing `src` to the URL of a model file?

What's the format of the 3D model? Are you going to build in support for all of the dozens of model formats that are in common use in every browser? Are you going to specify yet another new 3D model format as a standard target for browser to support?

Not sure where you got the idea of yet another format, no one seems to be mentioning that here or in the proposal.

Presumably browsers would support the most popular formats, just as they do with images and video. And just as with images and video, we'll likely end up in a situation where m most formats are supported by most browsers, with a couple odd formats that are only supported by some. Doesn't seem like a huge deal.

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