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Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

bbc.com

211–220 of 282 posts

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TBH, I'm confused about what you were trying to say. Amount of hydro power capacity per capita in Scotland is much higher than say in Wales. > pretty much every country has some geography conducive to hydro This is simply not true. Availability of hydro in Switzerland is much better than for example in Lithuania.

> Amount of hydro power capacity per capita in Scotland is much higher in Scotland than say in Wales. Is it? Because most of Wales is mountainous. And nearly all of its inhabitants don't live in the mountains. Still confused about why the population distribution is important, especially as Wales and Scotland are part of the UK electrical grid, so per-capita is ultimately meaningless unless both declare independence a…

> Is it? Because most of Wales is mountainous

It's hard to me to say right now mountainousness of these two countries compare (but looking at the map, looks like Scotland has more and higher mountains https://maps-for-free.com/).

But Wales population density is three times as low as in Wales.

So even if mountain availability would be the same (which I claim it is not), then hydro power capacity is three times lower in Wales.

> Still confused about why the population distribution is important

Distribution is not important, density is.

> per-capita is ultimately meaningless unless both declare independence and sever that grid connection

If it was meaningless, we would not discuss the BBC article in the first place.

> it'd be damn hard to find one that has geography that prevents any hydro capacity

Well, technically one can build hydro power plant virtually everywhere where there are rivers, but in many places (with only few mountains) building hydro power plants is prohibitively expensive and leads to too much land wasted for water storage.

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grid storage is such an interesting topic to me. We are all used to energy storage at a small scale (phone batteries, even electric cars) but the challenges of needing to store such vast amounts of energy seems like an almost impossible task, even the large Tesla battery in AU only seems to be used to help smooth the grid supply. It seems that the Scottish landscape might lend itself to more Hydro but that'll be an u…

> but the challenges of needing to store such vast amounts of energy seems like an almost impossible task Only if you don't look at all available solutions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas "P2G is often considered the most promising technology for seasonal renewable energy storage" I dunno why this is such an unknown technique, natural gas storage is a very old and proven technology. Yet it is ommitted fro…

Power to gas needs a source of carbon to produce methane. No, the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is not a good candidate for this, since it's at very low concentration. Theoretically one could use biomass, but thats a very inefficient method of carbon collection.

Also, exist prototype power to gas facilities are ~50% efficient, just for the power-to-gas step. Even with a 66% efficient combined cycle gas turbine, which is the best we have, net efficiency is ~33%.

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#213
post #175
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only really critically necessary government intervention is making sure the grid can handle this. It would probably help if they mandated smart electric storage heaters on new builds but beyond that I'm not sure you need to do much more. You can rely on people's self interest to buy a new washing machine that saves them money, for instance.

I was thinking more along the lines of international standards for how the appliance could tell that it was in a period of low electricity pricing. Also, since green tech often saves fewer actual dollars from a consumer's pocket than the "real" cost of the externalities saved, subsidies and/or eco-friendly certification would also be good.

> I was thinking more along the lines of international standards for how the appliance could tell that it was in a period of low electricity pricing.

The obvious solution to this is grid frequency. It's already a requirement for solar grid tie invertors for example.

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#214
post #98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah heat pumps are the answer to places like Scotland. As a bonus you get air conditioning. They do have some problems with extreme cold (not really an issue in Scotland or most of Europe for that matter) but even in such a case should still be used together with plain resistance heating. But that kind of cold has very few people living there anyway (think -30c or colder)

I've been wondering about this! I keep hearing that air-source heat pumps aren't great in pretty cold areas. Do you have any links or references on this? I live in the Northeast US and wanted to see what the options were and what people's experiences have been.

Every third house has an air source heat pump where I live in Norway about 40 km south of Oslo. My next door neighbour has two. The produce more heat than the input electricity until the temperature falls to about -25 C.

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is electricity the primary cost for the things you list? Once you have paid for the factory, equipment, employees, materials to manufacture aluminum or jet fuel, I can't imagine the stakeholders just shutting everything down if the cost of electricity fluctuates. For actual buffers to be developed, we need applications that are super cheap to set up but expensive to run. Storage heating / cooling is a good idea, I ca…

> from the top of my head Charging your electric car battery. BTW, heating/cooling my house is half my energy bill. Time shifting that could easily cut that by a third. All I need to make that work is variable rates. But with fixed 24/7 rates, nobody has any incentive to do that.

> heating/cooling my house is half my energy bill. Time shifting that could easily cut that by a third. All I need to make that work is variable rates.

This isn't as simple as you make it sound. You can't just cool your house once when electricity is cheap and then have it stay cool all day. Keeping your house at a different temperature than outside is a constant, active process.

There are industrial systems that "store" cold by making large blocks of ice when electricity is cheap, and then using that ice as part of the HVAC system to cool the building throughout the day. This could be adapted to home use, but I have no idea the relative cost of the machinery vs electricity savings.

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly these 'negative' prices aren't available to regular people. Only a select few who can trade on the spot market can use them. If regular people could get paid to switch on space heaters, the negative prices would soon go away.

Anyone can go on the Octopus Agile tariff here in UK, where you pay exactly what the prices are. If the prices are negative, then Octopus actually credits your account. I know some people with EVs on the Agile tariff, they have their car chargers set to only charge when the price is <0 - which happens at least a couple times a week, and they effectively get paid for charging the electric cars. Personally I'm on their…

> which happens at least a couple times a week,

Citation needed. Last time I looked the pricing of octopus agile went negative for like 15 minutes a year...

EDIT: just crunched the data... It looks like this only happened frequently in 2020 (not in 2018/19/21), and even then, for a typical 1 kilowatt household, it would only save £2 per year, and even if you deliberately maxed out and used the maximum current limit of your AC supply (100 amps, 24 kW, for most households), it's still only a saving of £50, which doesn't pay for the effort really...

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly these 'negative' prices aren't available to regular people. Only a select few who can trade on the spot market can use them. If regular people could get paid to switch on space heaters, the negative prices would soon go away.

Here in Texas a lot of people could get access to spot prices and it didn't work out as well as they'd hoped.

Yes a lesson has been learned, not particularly hard to mitigate though. I'm sure sales of generators, battery storage, and software/hardware capable of disconnecting from the grid when prices are insane are brisk in Texas.

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#218
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, great point. I like this report showing that rapidly decarbonizing will create 25 million jobs, save the average American household $2000 per year, and improve the quality of life of everyone: "How to create 25 million jobs by decarbonizing the economy" - https://www.fastcompany.com/90533448/how-to-create-25-millio...

That is like saying we can create 25 million jobs by starting a land war in Asia. I mean they directly compared it to WWII mobilization in the article.

"Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it's jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels. [Reply to the government bureaucrat of one Asian country who told him that, reason why there were workers with shovels instead of modern tractors and earth movers at a worksite of a new canal, was that: "You don't understand. This is a jobs program."]" -- Milton Friedman (probably apocryphal)

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#219
post #74

How much do they pay? I've heard electricity is quite expensive in the UK so surviving a winter can be hard.

A few people in this thread are talking about electric heating being awful. And yeah, I think traditional electric resistance heating is expensive and not very high quality, but modern electric heat pumps are one of the most efficient forms of space heating we have, they can be run in reverse to cool houses too, and they increase comfort a lot — many systems allow you to have room-by-room control of the temperature.…

They're expensive though, and basically unaffordable to retrofit an existing home, which would typically be already using a gas boiler.

Re: Equivalent of 97% of Scotland’s 2020 electricity consumption was from renewables

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can go on the Octopus Agile tariff here in UK, where you pay exactly what the prices are. If the prices are negative, then Octopus actually credits your account. I know some people with EVs on the Agile tariff, they have their car chargers set to only charge when the price is <0 - which happens at least a couple times a week, and they effectively get paid for charging the electric cars. Personally I'm on their…

> which happens at least a couple times a week, Citation needed. Last time I looked the pricing of octopus agile went negative for like 15 minutes a year... EDIT: just crunched the data... It looks like this only happened frequently in 2020 (not in 2018/19/21), and even then, for a typical 1 kilowatt household, it would only save £2 per year, and even if you deliberately maxed out and used the maximum current limit o…

You're absolutely right, it was far more common last summer when I was switching, looks like this year the negative prices are very very rare:

https://www.energy-stats.uk/octopus-agile-north-eastern-engl...

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