U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#211

Post by kibwen » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

isoskeles wrote: post #190

kibwen wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor) A genuine question of my own: what has planted this worry in your mind? What tenor do you speak of? The demographics of the US mean that any policy that POC want to enact has to also be supported by enormous numbers of white people; that POC-friendly policies have ever passed is evidence that worki…

> what has planted this worry in your mind? * https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-whit... * https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/mel... * https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-tim... * https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-950... * https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-spea... * https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06…

The quote that shows up in several of those links:

"I’m no longer engaging with white people on the topic of race. Not all white people, just the vast majority who refuse to accept the existence of structural racism and its symptoms."

It sounds like you have answered the above poster's question about how to join in: by "accept[ing] the existence of structural racism and its symptoms".

> The word "planted" implies that an idea with no basis in reality was put into this person's head.

As I explain in my post, it cannot have basis in reality due to the provable existence of democratic decisions in favor of POC that have not merely included white voters, but often were comprised of a majority of white voters.

To say that someone is telling whites to "shut up" is to misrepresent your own cited headlines: "shut up and listen". If someone wants you to listen, it is self-evident that they want your help. You don't ask someone to listen if you don't care what they think or what they do. If someone in need asks another for help, the very first thing they will want to do is have the other person listen to what they need. And if someone is telling someone else to shut up so they can ask for help, that suggests that they think their cry for help is being drowned out.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#212

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

isoskeles wrote: post #190

kibwen wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would be worried about a “this protest isn’t about your situation, white person” response. (Given the current tenor) A genuine question of my own: what has planted this worry in your mind? What tenor do you speak of? The demographics of the US mean that any policy that POC want to enact has to also be supported by enormous numbers of white people; that POC-friendly policies have ever passed is evidence that worki…

> what has planted this worry in your mind? * https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/best-whit... * https://www.news24.com/news24/columnists/melanieverwoerd/mel... * https://3downnation.com/2020/06/02/dear-white-people-its-tim... * https://medium.com/i-taught-the-law/shut-up-white-people-950... * https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-06-11/a-time-to-spea... * https://select.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2020-06…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#213

Post by syops » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

jlawson wrote: post #196

syops wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop thinking in terms of race and instead think in terms of class and economic justice then real progress could be made. Lyndon Johnson had a famous quote about just this. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-wh...

This is a surreal reversal of the situation. Upper-class whites are obsessed with race, especially in the last few years. Every news story - and the news comes from the upper whites - gets twisted into something about race, as in this case. Every tech company, every Hollywood studio, every academic institution are vibrating with energy to find and fight racism; overflowing with programs and policies about race. Hell,…

Yes, upper class are obsessed with race and are enacting superficial policies that do little to help people who really need it. They are content to do things that make it appear to be addressing a problem but not doing things that would actually address those problems. For instance, upper class people rarely advocate for changing the way k-12 schools are funded. They rarely advocate for increasing the pay and resources of public defenders. They rarely advocate for reforming a justice system that caters to those who can afford a lawyer and crushes those who can’t.

The obsession with race by the political class gets lower class whites to lose focus on real reform that would benefit everyone. So instead of saying why can’t poor people afford justice they have their attention shifted on the crimes committed by POC and the need for more cops and harsh penalties and whatnot. Instead of saying we need better pay, better health and child care the focus is on welfare deadbeats. This list goes on.

The focus on a large numbers of issues in the U.S. is about race rather than about class. News media and whatnot fuel this because fear sells. It’s gets more viewers to talk about out of control black kids terrorizing whites than it is to talk about school reform, prison reform, culture reform, etc.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#214

Post by Broken_Hippo » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:34 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #69

machiaweliczny wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah if you arent willing to pay them living wage you probably don't. I'm fine with paying little more than handling it myself. I think amazon Go style shops will get popular. These people probably can transition to different parts of service economy well. Low skill call centers are total waste of human time, that's why most of it is outsourced. UX just can get improved instead.

>Yeah if you arent willing to pay them living wage you probably don't. What if they are willing to work for less because it serves their purpose (like a foot in the door in the industry, or something else that you and I can't even think of). For example, we allow unpaid internships because we see the value of it. What about an internship that pays a little? Isn't that better for all? The problem is you're taking choi…

Unpaid internships are gatekeeping at its finest: Poor folks can't do them. By expecting people to have someone to support them while they take a chance to get in the door, you are saying you don't want folks that don't have that or aren't rich enough to suffer through it.

Just because a few people are willing to work for less - or for free - to get in the door doesn't mean it is just to take advantage of them and pay them less than a living wage. Not everyone will be working x job for opportunity. Some folks need to eat. And yes, it is taking advantage of people - artists and musicians get offers to get paid in Exposure all the time. Which is really, "please work for free!".

The only real exception to this is, perhaps, when the work is actually part of schooling, and that should be limited. Teachers, doctors, and pharmacists come to mind, though we do treat the doctor interns quite horribly. (some pharmacist interns get a bit of pay).

If you want labor, pay a decent wage.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#215

Post by dillondoyle » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #202

hintymad wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty obvious that there has been an enlarging wealth gap and poverty rate has increased. What I don't understand is that the current narrative is to attribute such unfortunate events to systemic racism. Shouldn't we at least look at class difference, shift of industry trend, impact of policies, i.e., take the holistic view?

A hypothesis: The problems associated with poverty and economic affect both minorities and whites. However, racism adds an extra layer of difficulties on top of the more general problems---and poor whites are some of the strongest supporters of this extra layer. Further, racism has been a problem longer than (the current wave of) poverty and economic inequality. (See, for example, the 1950s and 60s when inequality wa…

I agree with this.

Poverty and economic disadvantage of POC are an obvious affect of 100s of years of oppression and has kept generations of Americans in poverty.

POC are more likely to be poor, far less social mobility, less housing opportunities (loan access as an example), hurt by gentrification, lacking quality education and so much more. Over policing + horrendous and an unfair criminal 'justice' system locking up black and brown kids (this chart is so disgusting [1]) and that's if they don't get shot during a traffic stop or selling lose cigarettes.

LGBTQ face similar hurdles, triple down Trans POC who are killed at a shocking rate with no repercussions most people don't care they are disposable in their eyes.

To your example of poor whites supporting this oppression I don't have data but I have seen this in part of my extended family who live in the south. Systemically poor, no social mobility. Despite being dependent on the social safety net they are hardcore MAGA and overtly blame POC and immigrants as the reason they are poor. One uncle (long story family problem trying to get him housed) refuses to live near black people...

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#216

Post by Broken_Hippo » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

krupan wrote: post #128

machiaweliczny wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage just forces some ppl to do more productive stuff. It will take away some jobs but you probably dont want such jobs in developed country. It's just better to allow more part-time work IMO. I would like some opinion of Dutch ppl on their part time work law, which seems interesting to me.

My local school district employs 14-year olds to vacuum the floor after school each day. You really think that has no value for anyone involved? I know one of the kids and they are sad that they will lose that job if Biden’s minimum wage is passed.

They are being manipulated or are hired because they are cheaper than the staff custodians, who probably have fewer hours because of the school's practice of child labor.

Even after a minimum wage increase, the school will still have to vacuum the floor. I'm guessing it'll just have the other staff do this now, who aren't children.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#217

Post by mikem170 » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

im3w1l wrote: post #176

aspaceman wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the alternative to shutting it down when a large majority of your population is idiots who don't believe the virus is real? Seriously. What else do you do? You should have given much larger stimulus checks and fund small businesses to help them stay open. Doesn't require leaving the restaurant open so Joe Six Pack can continue going to McDonalds every day like a moron. The political wedging on this issue is g…

Ideally you would immediately shut down everything and prevent the virus from even entering. With rigorous border controls and contact tracing you can prevent it from ever taking root. Having failed that, one option is keep everything open and let people die. Covid is not that deadly, so it's worthy of consideration. Another possibility is to deliberately make sure the young and healthy are infected. Preferably in a…

> Covid is not that deadly, so it's worthy of consideration.

Right. People seem to loose perspective. In the U.S. we have lost 1 out of 750 people to covid, mostly older and mostly with comorbidities. I assume this number will increase to 1 out of 500 when this is finished. Many countries are in this same range.

From a personal perspective it is a tragedy to lose someone close to you. From a population perspective this is not as big as deal as some people make it out to be.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#218

Post by bmitc » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

adolph wrote: post #184

tharne wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why we always go back to income inequality, it's not a useful metric. What matters is how many people are living good, prosperous lives. You can have have income equality simply by keeping everyone equally poor, or you can have prosperous societies where some people have a lot more than others, but everyone is doing well. Income inequality is only meaningful if the amount if wealth and prosperity in a so…

The US is primarily a materialist individualistic society where good is defined by commercial mimesis and folklore of the particular outweigh that of the common. Expressing concern for “income inequality” signals a virtuous desire for all to attain a nirvana of stuff attained through the magic of money.

That is hardly the case. Expressing concern for income inequality means expressing concern for people to have autonomy, proper food and shelter, proper healthcare, savings, and retirement capability. It is not virtue signaling, as you put it.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#219

Post by syops » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #200

syops wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend that the real tragedy of American politics is that what ought to be class/labor issues gets sidetracked into race issues. If poor whites would stop thinking in terms of race and instead think in terms of class and economic justice then real progress could be made. Lyndon Johnson had a famous quote about just this. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-convince-the-lowest-wh...

It sounds like you're saying that the poor whites are the one pushing the systematic racism view of the problem. Since it seems clear to me that that's not the case, I am confused by this view. Am I misunderstanding what you're saying? Edit: Since this got downvoted already, I'll try to clarify? I'm confused by what appears to be the opinion of the poster and asking for clarification so that I can better understand t…

I am definitely not saying that poor whites are the ones pushing the notion of race over class. I’m saying they’ve been taught by media to view things in terms of race rather than class. Race has been used by the ruling class to stifle economic justice. It’s been used to divide the lower class.

Re: U.S. Suffers Sharpest Rise in Poverty Rate in More Than 50 Years

#220

Post by missedthecue » Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 9:59 PM UTC

whateveracct wrote: post #4

exabrial wrote: post #3

This and a spiraling mental health crisis are predictable outcomes from poor public health policies executed during the pandemic. For unskilled labor jobs like the service industry, lockdowns are devastating which has fueled the inequality fire in 2020. Now, talks for a massive federal minimum wage increase means further sending people into poverty by destroying the value of what small savings anyone on the bottom mi…

> Now, talks for a massive federal minimum wage increase means further sending people into poverty by destroying the value of what small savings anyone on the bottom might have. are you suggesting the newly-proposed $15 minimum wage will cause inflation so bad it will destroy people's savings?

If someone's skills do not justify $15/hr, they will get locked out of the labor market, keeping them in poverty. Many municipalities enacted the minimum wage as a way to keep blacks out of the workforce. It is literally an example of codified systemic racism.