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Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#211

Post by cmxch »

eulers_secret wrote: post #182
silicon2401 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find myself surprised that people respond to this kind of writing. What part resonates with you? When I read this, I just roll my eyes at an author unabashedly looking to tug at heartstrings. I would be moved by a real person's story, but this not only is pure fantasy, it even creates a stereotype that all poor people are timid and frail. And again, I know some people do become broken by poverty, so why not…

I responded because I am empathetic. > What part resonates with you? Her losing her job, not being able to be re-hired at a similar salary, spending her savings, and winding up in poverty despite doing everything 'right'. At 55, she has an uphill battle to get another job. Why hire her when someone with 15 YOE costs less and will work for more than 5 years? Employees are not that unique. Ageism is also a large proble…

That's why I'm for a career replacement income measure. That way, obsolete/aged out individuals would still get paid in full.

Employers could continue the status quo, but would have a portion going to obsolete/aged out individuals. The only alternative would be for them to outcompete the replacement income with a better job.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#212

Post by nradov »

ardy42 wrote: post #184
mdavis6890 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree we need more cash payments to humans. But we have to be careful not to confuse money with stuff (the goods and services produced by the economy). Giving money does not produce any more stuff, it only increases the competition for and price of the stuff that is being produced. We are producing less stuff because of the pandemic, which means there is less to go around (however it gets allocated), and no amount…

> I agree we need more cash payments to humans. But we have to be careful not to confuse money with stuff (the goods and services produced by the economy). Giving money does not produce any more stuff, it only increases the competition for and price of the stuff that is being produced. > We are producing less stuff because of the pandemic, which means there is less to go around (however it gets allocated), and no amo…

Too many HN users have no idea how businesses operate outside the software sector. Many of those "non-essential" businesses and the associated supply chains are simply not set up in a way that can be stopped and then successfully restarted months later. If they're shut down for any significant period then they're gone for good. Crashing the economy into another Great Depression would kill more people than the virus. There has to be a sensible balance.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#213

Post by skinnymuch »

souprock wrote: post #188
maxerickson wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glancing at craigslist here, the first 3 vehicles under $6000 are a 2010, a 2008 and a 2006. The low mileage of the group is 133,000. They are dealer listings also, so probably not the best deals, but there aren't many others at the price.

That is because the cash-for-clunkers program, intended to help the automobile industry, sent the older cars to be destroyed. We crushed perfectly usable vehicles. That's like breaking windows to help the glass industry; it is not so nice for the poor or for the environment.

This is talking cars in last decade. Not cash for clunkers. Which likely isn’t a big enough of a dent to mess with cars made after it

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#214

Post by skinnymuch »

silicon2401 wrote: post #187
eulers_secret wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded because I am empathetic. > What part resonates with you? Her losing her job, not being able to be re-hired at a similar salary, spending her savings, and winding up in poverty despite doing everything 'right'. At 55, she has an uphill battle to get another job. Why hire her when someone with 15 YOE costs less and will work for more than 5 years? Employees are not that unique. Ageism is also a large proble…

I am also empathetic, but I find the author's writing in poor taste. She's still able to afford eating at expensive restaurants, but writes with the tone of a martyr because she has to get seltzer water instead of chardonnay. I grew up quite poor and still have loved ones who are poor, often even more than I was. Poor in the sense of born poor, a life of labor into age 60 or 70 poor. I'm also aware that this isn't un…

Yeah I felt similarly at parts.

I’ve been in way worse situations and I don’t think I’ve ever been exceptionally poor.

Reading her account especially that Chardonnay instance made my eyes roll all the way back.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#215

Post by feistypharit »

umvi wrote: post #129
jeromegv wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever the US did was not near permanent lockdowns, what is allowed to continue and be opened is more lenient than almost every country. The only countries with less restrictions than the US are opened exactly because they did a lockdown and kept the virus at bay. What kills the US economy is the virus being out there and making people afraid to get together into public settings.

I would argue the virus itself isn't making people afraid, it's media/government fear-mongering. In reality your average person has little to fear (besides the fear of spreading it to a vulnerable loved one).

I assume most people have a vulnerable loved one, no? The issue is it's one order removed from self, and most people don't abstract that far.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#216

Post by xyzzyz »

uoaei wrote: post #200
rayiner wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact

Those limits exist for the same reason the US can't just spend as much money as we want it to -- the threat of runaway inflation. If one member state spends "too much" (i.e., injects "too much" money into circulation), it challenges and threatens the economic capacity of other member states because it devalues the Euro because the Euro is less scarce than it was. And there are no "EU taxes," only taxes paid to each m…

> If one member state spends "too much" (i.e., injects "too much" money into circulation), it challenges and threatens the economic capacity of other member states because it devalues the Euro because the Euro is less scarce than it was.

This would make sense if only Eurozone members were part of the Stability and Growth pact, but as it turns out, other EU countries like Sweden or Poland, which neither are part of nor intend to join Eurozone any time soon, are also subject to these very same debt limit obligations stemming from the pact. Poland in fact has its own debt limit written into its national constitution.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#217

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #123
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying you're wrong, but... what particularly did the Democrats do (or not do)?

Listening to Elizabeth Warren in 2019 (who I respected tremendously as someone who previously announced she was a "capitalist to her bones") put an intersectionality spin on every policy item did it for me. At first, the whole "person of color" thing was just weird, and now I find it incredibly grating and alienating. Like I can't listen to one of her speeches without feeling "othered."

It's a real problem with her, the language stuff; I cringed every time I saw her say "Latinx" during the campaign, which is a term Latinos overwhelmingly reject, and was originally intended to refer to LGBT Latinos. Obama landed some glancing hits on her presentation style in his most recent book, too.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#218

Post by southeastern »

umvi wrote: post #129
jeromegv wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever the US did was not near permanent lockdowns, what is allowed to continue and be opened is more lenient than almost every country. The only countries with less restrictions than the US are opened exactly because they did a lockdown and kept the virus at bay. What kills the US economy is the virus being out there and making people afraid to get together into public settings.

I would argue the virus itself isn't making people afraid, it's media/government fear-mongering. In reality your average person has little to fear (besides the fear of spreading it to a vulnerable loved one).

And sickness, long term side effects, in addition to the threat to vulnerable loved ones. They have to keep talking about dangerous it is, because people keep insisting it isn't. It's not about just you, it's about the community-wide effect. But to be clear 30 year olds have been killed by covid 19 and people of all ages report long term after effects like shortness of breath, tiredness, and pain. And some people just can't afford to take the time off-- even a week of missed work can result in not making rent. It's happening as we speak-- homelessness is skyrocketing. These are real effects of the virus, it changes peoples lives

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#219

Post by southeastern »

just-juan-post wrote: post #149
ssully wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's safe to say there is a large portion of the population that will continue not eating indoors until they are vaccinated, or the infection numbers in their area go down significantly. I can't find articles to back it up, but I have read from restaurant owners saying that even when they were allowed to expand their indoor capacity, they were never hitting that limit. With that said, this is going to vary by…

If people are scared to go out then why even have lockdowns? Schrödinger's virus: We need lockdowns to save everyone but even if we didn't have lockdowns nobody would go anyway but we still need to lockdowns.

People still go out. Enough to spread infection. But not enough to maintain the economy.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#220

Post by southeastern »

pkaye wrote: post #124
nradov wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The blame for the situation lies squarely at the feet of the state and local governments. The federal government didn't force any businesses to close. There is a huge variance between states in pandemic control measures. If businesses are still open in Florida then why should Floridians pay federal income taxes to subsidize closed businesses in California? And states do have options for funding relief at the state le…

Florida is already a taker state instead of a giver. Why should we give them more if they can just tax themselves for the difference? https://rockinst.org/issue-area/new-yorks-balance-of-payment...

Seriously, OP's argument makes no sense. It's just distracting from the issue of the federal government's failures. This constant distraction is part of why the government is able to fail so badly without any consequences.
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