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Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#181

Post by ardy42 »

nradov wrote: post #24
powersnail wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another aspect is that selling used stuff doesn’t bring much money in, especially clothing. I don’t even know whether it’s sellable. Apart from my car, if I sell all my belongings, I might get one month worth of rent. Hardly seems worth it, unless there is a way to use that money to earn more money.

Charities barely even want used clothes donations any more. Only a few top designer labels have any significant resale value.

> Charities barely even want used clothes donations any more. Only a few top designer labels have any significant resale value.

Long ago, I volunteered once at a thrift store. IIRC, they actually bailed up a significant fraction of their clothing donations and sent them Africa.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#182

Post by eulers_secret »

silicon2401 wrote: post #167
3minus1 wrote: post #5

I heard this on NPR recently and was really moved by it [1]. Recommend reading the whole thing. > You know me. I'm in your friendship circle, hidden in plain sight. My clothes are still impeccable, bought in the good years when I was still making money. To look at me, you would not know that my electricity was cut off last week for non-payment or that I meet the eligibility requirements for food stamps. But if you pa…

I always find myself surprised that people respond to this kind of writing. What part resonates with you? When I read this, I just roll my eyes at an author unabashedly looking to tug at heartstrings. I would be moved by a real person's story, but this not only is pure fantasy, it even creates a stereotype that all poor people are timid and frail. And again, I know some people do become broken by poverty, so why not…

I responded because I am empathetic.

> What part resonates with you?

Her losing her job, not being able to be re-hired at a similar salary, spending her savings, and winding up in poverty despite doing everything 'right'. At 55, she has an uphill battle to get another job. Why hire her when someone with 15 YOE costs less and will work for more than 5 years? Employees are not that unique.

Ageism is also a large problem in tech, but we just don't talk about it much. How common is it to be on track to retire for 25+ years after aging out? What if someone forgot to change their 401(K) investment strategy and happen to be 'retired' (laid off due to age) during a market downturn? Does everyone know that's a thing you should do about 5 years before retirement?

There are too many 'gotchas' that can seriously alter retirement plans. I think it is cruel to treat people this way, and I can see it happening to myself. Even if I do everything 'right' (and I certainly have not). That is what I respond to - the warning that even if you play your hand well, you can still lose and have miserable twilight years.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#183

Post by nobody9999 »

uoaei wrote: post #173
nobody9999 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yours is a Randian analysis and it has been the sole argument from Republicans for not giving people UBI. >What do you think about the concept of "trickle-up economics"? I'd argue that significantly enhancing the social safety net, significantly increasing minimum wages and, most importantly, providing strong incentives toward reduced incomes at the very high end, would provides significant long term economic advant…

I guess I'm not seeing the difference between "the social safety net" and "money in people's hands." Technocratic means-tested programs are no substitute for giving people money and letting them spend it organically. Isn't that the point of a "free market" anyway? To let the market decide what is valuable? It's hard to accept any claim that constructing barriers makes social safety nets more effective. Giving people…

>The only way they can be different is if you think economic output would be significantly different if people weren't "forced" to work by making wages the only avenue of income.

I do think economic output would be significantly different, regardless of how you "spread it around."

A broader base of consumers will consume more.

A broader base of entrepreneurs will expand economic development.

Spreading the money around will increase consumption and incentivize increased economic output.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "Randian" perspective, based on what I wrote.

My post advocated for an enhanced safety net. I did not put any conditions (like "means tested") on such enhancements.

My post advocated for, in simple terms, "spreading the money around widely", in order to increase economic stability, reduced poverty and economic inequality.

I also implied that doing so would, over the long term, create an economy with less inequality by increasing the share of a (growing) pie by those with the least.

And that's somehow "Randian?"

I guess one (or both) of us need to go back and re-read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead, because IIRC the changes I suggest are completely antithetical to those expressed in Rand's writings.

Edit: Added clarity WRT to the impact of increased wages/enhanced safety net vs. UBI.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#184

Post by ardy42 »

mdavis6890 wrote: post #154
snarfy wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The near-permanent lockdowns needed to be offset by government payment programs like they were in every other developed country except the US. If they shut everything down but don't offset it somehow, what do they expect the result to be? The $1200 check was laughable.

I agree we need more cash payments to humans. But we have to be careful not to confuse money with stuff (the goods and services produced by the economy). Giving money does not produce any more stuff, it only increases the competition for and price of the stuff that is being produced. We are producing less stuff because of the pandemic, which means there is less to go around (however it gets allocated), and no amount…

> I agree we need more cash payments to humans. But we have to be careful not to confuse money with stuff (the goods and services produced by the economy). Giving money does not produce any more stuff, it only increases the competition for and price of the stuff that is being produced.

> We are producing less stuff because of the pandemic, which means there is less to go around (however it gets allocated), and no amount of money will change that.

A large fraction of that stuff is not strictly necessary for anyone's survival, especially in the short term. It's various degrees of "nice to have." Too see this, look at the kinds of rationing they did in WWII.

A successful COVID containment strategy would have identified the truly essential vs nice-to-have parts of the economy, and temporarily shut the latter parts down while supporting all affected workers in those sectors with payments sufficient to provide all needed access to essential goods and services for the duration (including housing). That wouldn't work as a permanent economic policy, but it would work as a temporary coordinated response to time-limited crisis.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#185

Post by f00zz »

uoaei wrote: post #134
rayiner wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain why the EU (and countries like Germany) impose tight limits on budget deficits.

Sure! First you will have to support your claim that they do so.

Before the current crisis Germany had several years of budget surpluses.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#186

Post by souprock »

jeromegv wrote: post #101
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also can’t sell or trade your car to downgrade if you need a car, as if you need financing to get the next car, you’re not going to qualify for the loan if you’re without employment. Your car is a trailing indicator of your financial situation, not necessarily present state.

The fact that most jobs require a car is a huge deterrent for most low income people to actually find a job. Great public transit is not just something to help the poor, it's also a way to make workers be able to get to work, it's good for the economy and yet we look at it almost as charity.

Public transit spreads viruses, both old and new. It helped put us in this mess. It'll spread the next virus too. We have a huge problem if people get used to relying on a transportation method that needs to be shut down when a virus spreads.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#187

Post by silicon2401 »

eulers_secret wrote: post #182
silicon2401 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always find myself surprised that people respond to this kind of writing. What part resonates with you? When I read this, I just roll my eyes at an author unabashedly looking to tug at heartstrings. I would be moved by a real person's story, but this not only is pure fantasy, it even creates a stereotype that all poor people are timid and frail. And again, I know some people do become broken by poverty, so why not…

I responded because I am empathetic. > What part resonates with you? Her losing her job, not being able to be re-hired at a similar salary, spending her savings, and winding up in poverty despite doing everything 'right'. At 55, she has an uphill battle to get another job. Why hire her when someone with 15 YOE costs less and will work for more than 5 years? Employees are not that unique. Ageism is also a large proble…

I am also empathetic, but I find the author's writing in poor taste. She's still able to afford eating at expensive restaurants, but writes with the tone of a martyr because she has to get seltzer water instead of chardonnay.

I grew up quite poor and still have loved ones who are poor, often even more than I was. Poor in the sense of born poor, a life of labor into age 60 or 70 poor. I'm also aware that this isn't unique, lots of people out there are anywhere between very poor to obscenely indigent, so I and other poor or formerly poor people don't generally tend towards unabashed self pity. Because of that, this author's story just makes me roll my eyes. Here are some examples of what I mean:

> WHITE: You know, I have all the props and credentials. I have a Harvard MBA. I have a master's in international studies from Hopkins. I went to Oberlin undergraduate. You know, I worked at the World Bank.

> But if you paid attention, you would see the sadness in my eyes, hear that hint of fear in my otherwise self-assured voice.

> You invite me to the same expensive restaurants that the two of us have always enjoyed. But I order mineral water now with a twist of lemon instead of the $12 glass of chardonnay.

> There are no media stories about me. My slide out of the middle class is not sensational enough

I can empathize that the change is difficult, but I won't cry for her having to skip a chardonnay that's worth more than what many people spend on food (or earn) in a day. She's obviously a very intelligent and accomplished person and almost certainly has connections; I'd rather save my attention and empathy for the people who don't have a list of degrees and accomplishments. So when I see people do respond to this kind of story, I can't help but wonder if they have ever personally experienced poverty, let alone the lifelong and encompassing poverty (in the sense that everyone around you is poor and you have no connections somewhere higher up) that I saw so often growing up.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#188

Post by souprock »

maxerickson wrote: post #159
lumost wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cars made in the last 15 years don’t look that different from each other. You can purchase a 7-8 yo mass market vehicle for 2-6k that will run alright. Having used cars older than that as a daily driver, the cost of repairs/downtime outstrip the cost of replacing the vehicle more often than not. Not driving isn’t really an option in the US, and driving a clunker will raise some flags to coworkers/other parents in the…

Glancing at craigslist here, the first 3 vehicles under $6000 are a 2010, a 2008 and a 2006. The low mileage of the group is 133,000. They are dealer listings also, so probably not the best deals, but there aren't many others at the price.

That is because the cash-for-clunkers program, intended to help the automobile industry, sent the older cars to be destroyed. We crushed perfectly usable vehicles. That's like breaking windows to help the glass industry; it is not so nice for the poor or for the environment.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#189

Post by maxerickson »

souprock wrote: post #188
maxerickson wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glancing at craigslist here, the first 3 vehicles under $6000 are a 2010, a 2008 and a 2006. The low mileage of the group is 133,000. They are dealer listings also, so probably not the best deals, but there aren't many others at the price.

That is because the cash-for-clunkers program, intended to help the automobile industry, sent the older cars to be destroyed. We crushed perfectly usable vehicles. That's like breaking windows to help the glass industry; it is not so nice for the poor or for the environment.

It was tiny (relative to the US vehicle market, ~700,000 vehicles vs ~15 million annually) and obviously didn't remove 2010+ cars from the market.

Which those more recent vehicles are the vehicles the other poster alluded to, that I did not find with a real basic search.

Re: Nearly 8M Americans have fallen into poverty since summer

#190

Post by TheBlight »

ardy42 wrote: post #179
thebean11 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not like that's the only solution that's been floated. Stimulus checks would have kept people out of poverty too.

> It's not like that's the only solution that's been floated. Stimulus checks would have kept people out of poverty too. You're right, but the implications of the GGP comment's phrasing imply they wouldn't have liked that solution. IMHO, in some quarters, the weeping and gnashing of teeth about the costs mandatory social distancing (up to and including stay at home orders) directly flows from the rejection of governm…

That's not the only choice. Focusing protection on the vulnerable while allowing the rest of society to function could've spared us both from the worst of the pandemic's destruction and the economic destruction -- "economic" is a bit of a misnomer too. There is a greater cost to lockdowns than just economics. Mental and physical health also suffer. Those that can't get preventative care they need suffer. Depressed people and those with anxiety who turn to drugs, alcohol and suicide suffer.
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