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Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

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Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#211
post #53
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually liked Hipchat. It did what it was supposed to do - provide instant chat with colleagues - without the overhead and frills of Slack. It was simple and reliable. I'm not sure why it was so disliked.

> It was simple and reliable.

What is hard about slack? We use channels for the "group" stuff and IM for quick and dirty chats, otherwise just pick up the phone and call. I personally just prefer using email, but the kids like their slack/discord/whatever

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its a fairly powerful tool for PM's That's the fundamental problem. Jira is sold to PMs and managers, not to developers, and it shows. Jira isn't an issue tracking tool, it's a work-tracking and developer-tracking tool masquerading as an issue tracker. The people who spend the most time with it aren't the customer.

Interesting how perspectives differ. Having used Jira for many years, I think it's straightforward for engineering work, but particularly hard for PMs and managers. Why? On the engineering side, it's pretty straightforward to integrate into a lifecycle. But for PMs and management it's a nightmare because they still haven't gotten their birds-eye-view roadmapping / bulk editing act together. The usual issue I have wit…

This is pretty much my experience as well - Jira is used almost entirely by developers (and we set up the statuses/transitions/etc in the ways we find useful), while product organizes their thoughts in Excel/Google Sheets and will create/watch/comment on Jira cases but mostly not otherwise use it.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't depend on the office for their socialization Could you explain what you mean by this argument?

By and large, Europe does not have Silicon Valley's culture of crazy overtime, living at the office, and spending your remaining free time with your colleagues.

European companies don't have equally nice office, free snacks or pay as top American companies.

Companies that hire young driven workers and have a good environment can get a similar amount of overtime and the work all the time attitude.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#214
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am directly responsible for Jira and Confluence admin/infrastructure on an enterprise level and once you know how at least Jira works, its a fairly powerful tool for PM's. I haven't run into many issues except during a migration where we knew we were going to run into issues. Atlassian's documentation isn't that good however.

> its a fairly powerful tool for PM's That's the fundamental problem. Jira is sold to PMs and managers, not to developers, and it shows. Jira isn't an issue tracking tool, it's a work-tracking and developer-tracking tool masquerading as an issue tracker. The people who spend the most time with it aren't the customer.

Can someone explain what is hard about Jira to me? I push bugs and pull bugs and spend maybe 20 minutes a day in it. What is hard about it? Am I just at a place that uses it sanely? Once a week we spend maybe 1 or 2 hours in it review/updating the Agile sprint buckets with the group.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By and large, Europe does not have Silicon Valley's culture of crazy overtime, living at the office, and spending your remaining free time with your colleagues.

European companies don't have equally nice office, free snacks or pay as top American companies. Companies that hire young driven workers and have a good environment can get a similar amount of overtime and the work all the time attitude.

Not so sure about that. I know plenty offices in Stockholm with free food, drinks and entertainment for employees.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#216
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure why you'd comment this in the first place? If you're a developer you simply need to login and look at your project, not really know much else except how to click issue buttons. I'm talking from an administrator standpoint. Developers also aren't the center of the universe no matter how much we think we are.

Most of the tickets in our JIRA are made for the developers, not for the PMs or the customer support. Also, looking at my project is a pain since my tickets are outside the sprint and I either need to go into the backlog and scroll a bunch, or use a custom search.

Unless you're a micromanager that's the way it should be. She see issues opening and closing and estimates on it. If those estimates blow up/linger on and on then the PM is needed to pull together resources and get it finished off. I don't see how it's a big deal. I've used it both as group lead and as a programmer and didn't have many issues with it either way. Sure it's a bit laggy but it's not that bad. It would be a lot nicer if they'd made a native client that has better queuing/caching of tasks to let you do many things at once.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#217

One thing that is not often mentioned is these threads is how this is particularly beneficial for European workers. They live in cities that are already small and dense, generally don't depend on the office for their socialization, internet speeds are good (due to density probably) and family life is balanced. Plus a lot of them are already accustomed to working remotely. They 'll probably be able to compete for a lo…

Which is hilarious to me as someone that has hired devs from Europe for a while now.

Why compete with FAANG trying to pay new grads $300k when you can pay an experienced developer from Europe $100k? I honestly never understood it.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't new talent more expensive than existing talent? If you've had employees that for years have been getting inadequate COL adjustments, they're cheaper to keep than getting market-rate talent.

This assumes that the market rate is constantly increasing. Given the amount of job losses that have occurred recently, there may be talent available at a cheaper price.

Developing countries are developing at a two digit percentage a year, same in the few top cities.

If a company has had somebody stagnant for years (many years), they're not going to be replaced for cheaper. The crash might cancel the last couple years of inflation at most.

Also, the employee is much more experienced now (could go from junior to senior over 5 years). Will the replacement be equally experienced or starting from scratch again? A fresh experienced hire is certainly more expensive than what the employee was originally earning.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#219
post #85
post #56

If this trend continues, it should affect bay area housing prices. I dont see any reason to pay such high rent, if I could work anywhere in the pacific north west.

My Bay Area job is letting me WFH permanently, and I'm looking to move to an adjacent area but the rental market is empty, and housing sales seem... targeted to SF expats.

bad time to buy a house just about anywhere unless you get some insane deal on it and know you can flip it quickly.

Re: Atlassian tells employees they can work from home forever

#220

Unfortunately, game theory says that remote work will not stay once people can go back to work from the office safely. The reality is that there is a real advantage in working in person. Whether it’s increased trust, communication, or lower friction. We could see it pre-COVID in a he fact that there are barely any successful remote offices (let alone individuals). This means that employees would see advantages to com…

Game theory doesn't know everything. History tells us that when people are exposed to new ideas they will often adapt. After managers see that working from home isn't necessarily the devil they will allow more of it. However, it's not going to be wholesale shift to home, unless there is a big monetary advantage (say rent was insane to be in the middle of the city) companies will meet with the idea somewhere in the middle, especially in tech jobs.
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