Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says • Hacker News Board

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#211

Post by 1024core » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

adrianmonk wrote: post #139

seesawtron wrote: post #39

On a smaller but more widespread scale is the issue of fake licenses for driving automobiles. It is common knowledge how you can get these licenses easily in "some" (similar) countries without ever giving a driving test and/or going through any sort of written exam where you have to go through the rules of the road. Some argue that they are only endangering their own lives on the road but one can see how that is comp…

I actually watched someone get a fake driver's license in the California DMV once a long time ago. (This was at the old location at the corner of Latham and Showers in Mountain View.) I was taking the wyritten test after having moved there, and there was a woman (around 18) also taking the written test and blatantly cheating. She had the book with the answers out in plain sight and was just reading them and discussin…

On one of my first visits to the DMV in San Francisco, I saw an employee ask around for the test key (this was about 10+ years ago, so they had a physical sheet of paper that was the key of correct answers) and hand it over to a test taker. I just assumed that it was some form of an internal testing thing, until I ended up behind her in the line to get photographed, when I realized that she was actually an applicant.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#212

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

polartx wrote: post #138

newyankee wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't want to add politics to this, but i hope they get more funding for safety. Sadly, most of the funding they get from US and other Western countries is gobbled up by the Army which is the most powerful institution in the country. Their economic situation is a little worse now and it is likely they will become a vassal state of China in the future as well. China will take the role of USA in the country if it goes…

>but i hope they get more funding for safety Here’s a wild idea: don’t try and fill the hole with money; if you can’t afford to safely move your nukes, you can’t afford your nukes, ergo you shouldn’t have nukes.

Well, sure, you can believe that, but you can't make it happen. If you try to, they're more likely to molon labe you than anything else.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#213

Post by kbash9 » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:45 PM UTC

andrewksl wrote: post #49

I'm genuinely, in a completely non-judgmental way, interested to understand what systemic forces lead to such a staggeringly high percentage of this brand of fraud.

I grew up in Pakistan. Simply put, this is due to a culture of nepotism and corruption.

There are thousands of credentialed pilots but very few pilot jobs in Pakistan. A job with the PIA is highly coveted and ensures life-long financial security and social status (this perhaps explains the overconfidence of the pilots when dealing with ATC). These jobs are usually handed out to people who have the right connections with the right people in power. Some of these candidates with the right connections only needs one of those thousands of desperate licensed candidates to sit in an exam for them. PIA is also said to have thousands of ground staff hired as favors by the ruling politicians all around the world.

Also worth mentioning that it wasn't always like this - pilots and executives from PIA were behind the launch of Emirates which is one of the most successful airlines in the world. So it is really a sad story of decay and is a representation of the deterioration in other parts of the country's society.

When the pilots fail to lower the landing gear, perhaps it is time to shut down the state-run airline that runs on a huge loss and serves the top one percent of the most poor populations in the world.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#214

Post by abdullahkhalids » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

teruakohatu wrote: post #18

"PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately." I would have thought anyone with a fake license was already grounded. It sounds like they knew this was an issue and just looked the other way.

It is a power issue. Everyone was aware, but the remaining pilots refused to let the authorities do anything.

The only reason this is happening is because of Covid-19. No flights, so pilots can't threaten to boycott flying. Let's see if the authorities have enough political capital to follow through with firing them all.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#215

Post by Balgair » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

haram_masala wrote: post #209

walrus01 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a completely illogical approach. An armored convoy stands out like a sore thumb in Rawalpindi. An ordinary slightly beat up, 6-8 year old Suzuki Bolan does not. Maybe send out a few decoy high security vehicles with uniformed crews going in a few different directions, and then send out the Bolan going elsewhere. Bolan: https://www.google.com/search?q=suzuki+bolan&client=ubuntu&h...

If an armored convoy is not enough to protect your nuclear weapons, then you have an entirely different problem that needs solving first.

The history of Pakistan in a nutshell

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#216

Post by abdullahkhalids » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

haram_masala wrote: post #209

walrus01 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a completely illogical approach. An armored convoy stands out like a sore thumb in Rawalpindi. An ordinary slightly beat up, 6-8 year old Suzuki Bolan does not. Maybe send out a few decoy high security vehicles with uniformed crews going in a few different directions, and then send out the Bolan going elsewhere. Bolan: https://www.google.com/search?q=suzuki+bolan&client=ubuntu&h...

If an armored convoy is not enough to protect your nuclear weapons, then you have an entirely different problem that needs solving first.

I think its an intelligence thing, protecting nuclear weapon movement from foreign satellites/drones etc.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#217

Post by ceejayoz » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:50 PM UTC

aspenmayer wrote: post #196

ceejayoz wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. There's very 90s video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIu4wVBfT30

Not sure if you intended to link to some QAnon propaganda account, but there are other sources of that same info. Here's a video showing the vehicle in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j0eJ0xB7LU Vendor's product page: https://dillonaero.com/product/convoy-escort-vehicle-cev-2/

Sorry about that, just the first one to come up in my search. I just watched a few seconds to confirm it was the vehicle I was thinking of. (Too old to edit/delete. Argh.)

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#218

Post by sidewndr46 » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

m3h wrote: post #208

jessermeyer wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. I have my doubts about the quality of the report given the incredible mishandling of the situation. "Imran Narejo, an official of the PIA Pilots Association, said Gul was a seasoned pilot with 18,000 hours of experience including over 4,000 hours in the A320." https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/05/9616e4079ce1-at-l...

In Pakistan, there is a culture of becoming overconfident and ignorant of the rules in the airline industry as the pilots age. This was also noted by the Aviation minister when he presented the PIA crash report to the assembly. It should be noted that two of the previous large crashes involving an Airblue and a Bhoja airplane were both concluded to be pilot error with the report pointing to overconfidence and negativ…

While I have no doubt this is true of Pakistan, it is true of many people who gain experience in a culture regardless of their age.

A while back some US Air Force pilots landed a B-1 bomber on Diego Garcia. The entire flight and the landing was flawless, other than the part where they landed with the gear in the retracted position. The report on the incidents finding was they simply went right past the item on the checklist like it never happened.

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#219

Post by dragandj » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

thenewwazoo wrote: post #176

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Here’s a wild idea: don’t try and fill the hole with money; if you can’t afford to safely move your nukes, you can’t afford your nukes, ergo you shouldn’t have nukes. Pakistan is playing in a geopolitical game that also involves the US, China, India and other nations much stronger than it. Large countries have a track record of being willing to throw small regional powers under the bus for their own gain. Pakistan,…

Ukraine is an excellent example of this. They voluntarily relinquished their nuclear weapons, and now Russian troops have invaded the eastern part of the country.

I’m not so sure that nuclear weapons would help in these kinds of regional conflicts against Russia. It’s not that Russia officially invaded Ukraine (although in practice it did), but it stirred up local population (of largely Russian ethnicity) and then gave them logistical support and protection. So, if Ukraine had nuclear weapons, what would it do with it? Strike Russia, who has many more nuclear warheads, and stronger anti-nuclear protection? Nuclear weapons are for USA, China, Russia, and maybe France/Europe, because they are not going to use it. Maybe Israel, whic is so tiny and surrounded by rrivals, that it has no choice but to have something to scare the neighbors with. Maybe India, because it’s big enough. For everyone else, nuclear weapons are a liability, because if they ever use it, they are going to be wiped out by the big boys for not obeying...

Re: Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

#220

Post by linuxftw » Thu, Jun 25, 2020, 6:56 PM UTC

m3h wrote: post #208

jessermeyer wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pilot was reportedly well seasoned. I have my doubts about the quality of the report given the incredible mishandling of the situation. "Imran Narejo, an official of the PIA Pilots Association, said Gul was a seasoned pilot with 18,000 hours of experience including over 4,000 hours in the A320." https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/05/9616e4079ce1-at-l...

In Pakistan, there is a culture of becoming overconfident and ignorant of the rules in the airline industry as the pilots age. This was also noted by the Aviation minister when he presented the PIA crash report to the assembly. It should be noted that two of the previous large crashes involving an Airblue and a Bhoja airplane were both concluded to be pilot error with the report pointing to overconfidence and negativ…

This is indicative of a systemic culture of rule breaking. This is common in all government run systems. "The system is too arduous, doesn't reflect the 'real world.' We know better than the system, we know what really matters." Eventually you have a bunch of John Waynes playing fast and loose with the rules, eventually they become emboldened, and since the government is famously bad at policing itself, these attitudes are pervasive.

This happens at the highest levels, even. Consider Hillary Clinton and the communication of classified (and information that should have been considered classified regardless of markings) via her primary email server. It's a pervasive culture of rule breaking.