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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#211

I wonder if shorter PhD programs, like they have at Oxford might give women more time in the workforce before they start becoming concerned with starting a family. Maybe starting earlier puts them in a more senior position at a younger age.

Shorter and fewer Ph.D.s (aka constrain the supply the way the AMA does) would actually solve all the problems mentioned here. Might even kickstart stalled scientific and technological development.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#212
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whoa, 50's regression much? Why not make room for fathers to take care of their own children? Nothing wrong with that, but mother goes first for obvious biological reasons.

After pregancy and the very first months of life, I fail to see any "obvious biological reasons".

WHO recommends breast feeding until age of 2, so that's at least one thing that seems not readily changeable across sexes.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#213
post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

In her article, she explains her hypothesis that women leave top-flight STEM/academic careers because the demands (and, crucially, when they must be met: 20s & 30s) conflict with the demands of bearing children during a woman's most-likely-to-be-successful childbearing years. She goes on to suggest that creating more supports for mothers such as affordable childcare and possibly collaborative academic working environments might mitigate the issue.

What leads you to think primarily about "passion" & socialization? It seems almost as though we read different articles, I didn't see anything about that.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#215
post #63
post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

> Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig Can you share any study/evidence to support that statement?

If we imagine that the work of women was craft work that could be safely and comfortably be done in the presence of children, then we can compare that to the places and conditions of the workplace of todays woman.

If yesterdays woman could bring her kids to work and todays cant, then we are pressuring women to have fewer children, and dumping the blame on them to boot.

What does todays idealized woman look like? Who are the role models we assign to our daughters?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#216

This seems like a really long argument just to end up at the main point being: "It really is sexism". The light bulb moment here is that it's not necessarily sexism on an individual level but on an institutional one. I believe there is an obvious difference men and women which, on a general level, incites women to weigh family responsibilities over career prospects. However, industrialized nations exacerbate that dif…

> more robust programs

And by “more robust programs”, you mean more related confiscatory taxation. Meaning that, again, men must surrender even more, and accept even less, to accommodate women.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#217
post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

> My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia The first thing I thought as well. When you read all these horror stories about burned out phd students, why is anyone doing this? If a woman in STEM wants to combine family and work (or a man or anyone else really) there are many jobs in the industry that are actually relatively 9-5, and pay really well. I don't un…

I am in academia, because I do not want to work in an office. I do not want to leave my apartment before 11am

Did not work out, since I now have an office, but at least I can show up at 2pm without being fired.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#218

One tactical approach: a high achieving woman could prioritize finding a partner who is interested in deprioritizing his own career for the sake of supporting her and raising children. This is a strategy high achieving men have used for a long time. So, pursue men involved in "child friendly" careers. Nurses instead of doctors; teacher aides over academics; tax preparers over management consultants. Or even men who a…

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#219
post #159
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. These statements couldn't be further from the truth. You don't need to hang out on HN for long to figure out that FAANG SWEs comfortably make upwards of 400k in their…

SWE at FAANG is only a minor, frankly irrelevant, portion of STEM. Most people in STEM cannot transition to being a FAANG SWE. In fact, the OP article of this thread is about progression in an academic career, which doesn't pay well unless you become a full professor at a research uni. First time you break low 6 figures in this career is when you become assistant prof in early/mid 30s.

And of the SWEs at FAANG, the ones making $400k in their 20s are yet another tiny slice. So we are comparing a tiny slice of a tiny slice of STEM professionals.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#220
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

Not sure I follow. Given two mothers (gonna leave aside some of the baggage here, fathers can do child care, not all women/people are straight or fit in the conventional framework): Amanda wants to have kids but also wants to be a Supreme Court litigator. Jane wants kids and wants to stay at home to raise them. Why is giving Amanda the option hurting Jane’s ability to chose her preferred outcome?

Should we force Amanda to chose? How is that empowering?

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