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Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

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Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#211

Post by zxcmx »

pgeorgi wrote: post #192
baroffoos wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is even though we can do this, the average user doesn't. They get the unsupported message and they then throw the laptop in the bin and buy the same thing again. All electronics makers should be required by law to supply security updates and spare parts for devices for at least 10 years after the point of sale (not after the release date). Another thing I think would have a big impact is requiring all con…

> All electronics makers should be required by law to supply security updates and spare parts for devices for at least 10 years after the point of sale (not after the release date). Let's start by requiring then that chip vendors sell and support their chips for at least that long? To stick to "10 years since introduction to market" which is a much easier requirement: 2009 was the year of AMD Phenom II (EOL 2012) and…

Regulation gets interesting too. What devices does this apply to? Does it apply to smart tvs, thermostats, printers, anything with software? (which will soon be everything). Components?

Can I import a device? What vetting / certification process will be applied? Who does that? What happens when devices are manufactured by subsidiaries which get folded after 3 years? What if "updates" are provided that don't actually fix any vulnerabilities? What counts as a vulnerability for the purpose of the law?

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#212

Post by cletus »

wishinghand wrote: post #209
p1necone wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is still garbage compared to Windows and Linux though. You can take basically any x86 computer from more than a decade ago and install modern Windows or your favourite linux distribution on it and it will work (albeit potentially quite slowly depending on the hardware). Are there any good reasons why Android and iOS are so much worse in this regard?

The market will bear it. Especially in the age of subsidized phones people didn’t mind the cost as much. This may change with $1000+ flagship phones.

This is the area where Apple now sucks, hard.

Go back 5-10 years ago the the Macbook Air (not the original form ~2008 but the second one from 2010-2011) was an awesome piece of hardware. I mean it still had soldered RAM (I think?) and lacked upgradeability but it was cheap and good.

Apple's current leadership didn't like this so we end up with useless features like the Touch Bar, which exist for one reason and one reason only: to drive up the ASP (average selling price) of Macbooks.

The same thing has happened to iPhones. The last iPhone I bought was the 6S 4 years ago and I think it was $649? Expensive but not ridiculously so. Like paying that every 3 years wasn't terrible.

But now? The 11 Pro is >$1000. WTF?

And these things keep getting worse as they add features no one wants or needs to drive up the ASP (eg Force Touch).

Oh and current iPhones use FaceID which is terrible. The false negative rate is really high and having no home button actually sucks. For example, you used to get to the home screen by pressing it. Now you need to swipe up. But which direction you have to swipe up from depends on the orientation of the app you're using. That may not be obvious. It sucks.

But I don't want to pay $1000+ for a phone with a battery that noticeably degrades in 2-3 years. To hell with that.

I'd be tempted to buy the iPhone 8 (the last one with Touch ID) but for a now 2 year old model the price is unjustifiably high as they want to drive you to buy the 11 or at least the XR.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#213

Post by cletus »

p1necone wrote: post #203
cletus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here is an area where Apple is significantly better than Android. The original Pixel is just over 3 years old and is now EOL for official releases. iOS 13 (current version) has minimum hadware of the iPhone 6S, released September 2015. That may only be a year but it will continue to receive iOS 13 updates for probably another year or so at least (rumour has it iOS 14 will be released late 2020 and no one yet knows…

This is still garbage compared to Windows and Linux though. You can take basically any x86 computer from more than a decade ago and install modern Windows or your favourite linux distribution on it and it will work (albeit potentially quite slowly depending on the hardware). Are there any good reasons why Android and iOS are so much worse in this regard?

The battery is a big part of that (IMHO). Even laptops, which obviously have batteries, tend to get used on a charger a lot. Mine are almost always on a charger.

Batteries degrade and on a device that is used 95%+ on battery power this is noticeable after 2-3 years such that there's no real point in making the hardware last longer than that.

You can argue the battery should be replaceable but that adds to the size and cost (to have the packaging and interconnects) and who is going to keep making them? I really wish there were standards for lithium batteries like we have for AA and AAA batteries. I'm not sure it's that simple though since there are bunch of parameters like peak power delivery, power storage and so son. But I'm no battery expert.

Anyway, newness of the form factor is also an issue. Back in the 90s, PCs used to be similarly short-lived. Microsoft's whole business model was built around people re-buying Windows licenses even 2-4 years.

I think this will improve as the market matures but we're still in the pioneering days in some ways.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#214

Post by azernik »

coachtrotz wrote: post #2

This is a big deal, not only for the farmers using machinery from manufacturers like Deere, but for the rest of society who may now have some precedent for right to repair.

This doesn't establish any precedent - it's not a law or regulation, just an expression of the opinion of an association of farmers. In the equipment market, they're effectively a consumers' rights organization (except B2B? analogies to the consumer electronics market are inaccurate). Equivalent maybe to large corporate purchasers or a Chamber of Commerce endorsing R2R.

(And also, as the article notes, the national Farm Bureau that the Nebraska group belongs to has already endorsed R2R!)

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#215

Post by toomanybeersies »

cletus wrote: post #210

What many people may not realize is just how long-lived a lot of farm equipment is. There will be tractors out there still working that are 75 years old and just keep getting repaired. Obviously the manufacturers would like to sell those farmers tractors more often than that or, in the very least, generate a revenue stream from existing hardware and honestly that's what I see a lot of computing in vehicles as being:…

I've seen and used farm equipment and machine tools (lathes, mills, etc.) from the 40's and 50's that are still in good serviceable condition.

I think it's been a long time since farmers cultivated their own seed though, even before roundup-resistant and GM crops were commonplace. It's a very different science and skill to growing crops.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#216

Post by bshacklett »

azernik wrote: post #214
coachtrotz wrote: post #2

This is a big deal, not only for the farmers using machinery from manufacturers like Deere, but for the rest of society who may now have some precedent for right to repair.

This doesn't establish any precedent - it's not a law or regulation, just an expression of the opinion of an association of farmers. In the equipment market, they're effectively a consumers' rights organization (except B2B? analogies to the consumer electronics market are inaccurate). Equivalent maybe to large corporate purchasers or a Chamber of Commerce endorsing R2R. (And also, as the article notes, the national F…

Perhaps not legal precedent, but many people may feel more comfortable pushing for right to repair if they see "down to earth" farmers calling for it. The ideal is much closer to entering the mainstream now that people other than technophiles are calling for change.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#217

Post by iteratorloopmap »

aguyfromnb wrote: post #117
ProZsolt wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should get ~7 years of update. Here you can check: https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en I think it should be more, but it's on par with MacBooks

> You should get ~7 years of update. Interesting. Thanks for the link. It appears that the hardware is older than I assumed (yet perfectly capable for browsing the web), which begs another question: I bought this thing brand new a few years ago. Should it be up to the consumer to ensure that there is life left for updates? I will be certain to now, going forward. But I can't expect less-savvy consumers to do the same…

Curiosly, which chromebook? You can install linux on some chromebooks.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#218

Post by teawrecks »

cletus wrote: post #201
ISL wrote: post #14

Right to repair is increasingly hitting people outside of agrarian/industrial contexts. This month, Google shipped the last update for my Pixel phone. The hardware is functional and in great shape, but I don't think there are any truly viable ways for me to keep it secure. I have a tablet that long-ago met the same fate. This is in the same world where I can 'apt-get update' my seven-year old desktop and work with ap…

So here is an area where Apple is significantly better than Android. The original Pixel is just over 3 years old and is now EOL for official releases. iOS 13 (current version) has minimum hadware of the iPhone 6S, released September 2015. That may only be a year but it will continue to receive iOS 13 updates for probably another year or so at least (rumour has it iOS 14 will be released late 2020 and no one yet knows…

I have to disagree wholeheartedly. The open source android community has kept my android phones going for years after google/the oem stopped supporting them. Meanwhile, everyone knows that if you update your iPhone to the latest version you run the risk of it running dramatically slower or with worse battery life. And there's no such thing as open source iOS. Apple is the king of planned obsolescence. Google isn't any better, but if you know what you're doing you're never locked in.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#219

Post by baroffoos »

pgeorgi wrote: post #192
baroffoos wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is even though we can do this, the average user doesn't. They get the unsupported message and they then throw the laptop in the bin and buy the same thing again. All electronics makers should be required by law to supply security updates and spare parts for devices for at least 10 years after the point of sale (not after the release date). Another thing I think would have a big impact is requiring all con…

> All electronics makers should be required by law to supply security updates and spare parts for devices for at least 10 years after the point of sale (not after the release date). Let's start by requiring then that chip vendors sell and support their chips for at least that long? To stick to "10 years since introduction to market" which is a much easier requirement: 2009 was the year of AMD Phenom II (EOL 2012) and…

I don't mean to suggest that this is a simple problem to solve. But the importance of this is far to great to ignore.

>How much stock should they keep around for the 10 extra years after 3 years on the market? (and what happens if they underprovision, will they be sued, or overprovision, throw it all in the bin? they can't sell it, or the 10 year clock starts again)

There is no reason they need to replace parts with the exact same chip they came with. If newer CPUs/chips are available they could put a new model in. There will likely need to be more standardization so individual parts can be replaced/upgraded but this is not impossible and is very common for parts like GPUs and pci cards.

There are also mountains of these parts floating around after sale. The OEM could encourage the return of unwanted electronics and then gut them for parts to use in repairs after they have been tested. Any leftovers after 10 years can be sent to recycling.

>vendors sold thinner and thinner devices, and customers preferred them over the others.

Customers preferences need to take a back seat over environmental needs. A customer can live with a 1mm thicker phone. They can't live without air and survivable weather.

None of this is trivial and it will be a massive shakeup to the status quo but there is no other alternative. In the end we will all be better off.

Re: Nebraska farmers vote overwhelmingly for Right to Repair

#220

Post by tapvt »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #215
cletus wrote: post #210

What many people may not realize is just how long-lived a lot of farm equipment is. There will be tractors out there still working that are 75 years old and just keep getting repaired. Obviously the manufacturers would like to sell those farmers tractors more often than that or, in the very least, generate a revenue stream from existing hardware and honestly that's what I see a lot of computing in vehicles as being:…

I've seen and used farm equipment and machine tools (lathes, mills, etc.) from the 40's and 50's that are still in good serviceable condition. I think it's been a long time since farmers cultivated their own seed though, even before roundup-resistant and GM crops were commonplace. It's a very different science and skill to growing crops.

I still run a 1949 Ford 8N tractor. No heroic measures needed to keep it going. Just routine maintenance.
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