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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The Real Class War

#211

Post by anigbrowl »

fluorocarbon wrote: post #206
Wh1skey wrote: post #165

The story of Rome’s fall is both complicated and relatively straightforward yet it eerily resembles America: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. If all of that sounds familiar, we…

Mortal Republic is not about the fall of Rome. It's about the fall of the Republic, or the transition from a republic (oligarchy) into an empire (monarchy). Rome in fact reached its largest extent about a hundred years after the fall of the Republic, under the emperor Trajan. When people talk about "Rome's fall," they're usually referring to the decline of the western half of the empire which happened 400-500 years a…

The GP didn't say it was about the fall of Rome, and nothing in the post suggests to me it was intended to be understood that way.

Re: The Real Class War

#212

Post by _carl_jung »

claudiawerner wrote: post #194
theohofpleasure wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a company which makes the profit. If you started a company and sold the tool for $500 and the company paid you $500 then there is no more profit for the company. If the company paid you $250, only then can they claim to have made $250 profit. Hence, profits are nothing more than unpaid wages.

It should be worth noting that this is a pretty strong (and I don't think defensible in the case given) claim to make - you're echoing the Marxist/socialist objection to profits (one which I may agree with) but Marx (nor anyone else) ever claimed that this happens without employing wage labour. For profits to be nothing more than unpaid wages, we need to be talking about at least one waged worker who applies labour,…

For what it's worth, the principle objection I have to the Marxist position on wage and profit is the redefinition of the term "exploitation".

It muddies the argument because it enables a circular argument whereby the transaction of employment can be labelled as exploitative, where it's easy to defend against the claim of exploitation if the original definition of the word is preserved.

In other words, profit generation as it comes from an employer/employee relationship is Exploitative but not exploitative.

Re: The Real Class War

#213

Post by theflyinghorse »

dcolkitt wrote: post #150
Despegar wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pie may have grown, but aside from labor in the Global South, the people who have captured the gains from that growth have been the capital class in the developed nations (i.e not blue collar workers or the professional class). And no, getting some of your compensation in stock options doesn't make you apart of the capital class, unless you can stop working.

> the people who have captured the gains from that growth have been the capital class in the developed nations (i.e not blue collar workers or the professional class) Wrong. Middle-class Americans have captured gains through cheaper, higher-quality products than would have otherwise existed without trade and development. Are you using a phone made in China, or wearing clothes made in Bangladesh, or eat fresh fruit in…

> Wrong.

Sure, we can say that there has been some benefit to the middle class in the West through reduced price on some of the goods but certainly not on big bill items such as housing and education. It's great that I can buy a cheap jacket and keep some of my income, it sucks that my housing expanses went from 1/5 to 1/2 of my income (as an example).

Overall an American worker who lost his well paying manufacturing job and replaced it with a job at walmart lost massively.

Elephant Chart I think tells the whole story[1].

1. https://avc.com/2016/08/elephant-chart/

Re: The Real Class War

#214

Post by anigbrowl »

intended wrote: post #129
simonh wrote: post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

That’s incorrect - the global pie has grown bigger. Inches and markers exist which never existed before. All those new workers are consumers for goods and services from America. America soy beans are famously bought in China, as are American bonds. Economically- if you get cheaper goods, you do more with the same income, meaning your quality of life goes up. The issue is not the growth of China- the issue is the dist…

America soy beans are famously bought in China, as are American bonds.

Well, they used to be.

Re: The Real Class War

#215

Post by helen___keller »

xwowsersx wrote: post #188
helen___keller wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't really agree with the author on this point, I think the basis of the claim is implied to be the election of Trump. Trump prevailing in the primary (and the general even) could be seen as a referendum of the working class on establishment politics. And yet, what has changed? Trump hasn't brought back American industry as promised, nor has he made a trillion dollars infrastructure package as promised. He…

I hear you, but that's an argument that the person that the "working class" voted in has been ineffectual in bringing about the change they are looking for (debatable). That's not an argument that they are not decisive in shaping politics. If electing Trump is a referendum on "the elite" then his election proves the opposite, no?

I think I might agree with the author in a more limited context, that on an institution by institution basis there is a fair amount of power that is outside the reach of voting and hence outside the influence of the working class.

An example here is the federal reserve. Interest rate decisions and quantitative easing decisions are vastly influential, and famously independent of the president.

I don't subscribe to any conspiracy theories that the federal reserve is being controlled by the rich. However, I think there's no doubt that both the individuals at the top of the fed, and their professional circles, have no overlap with the working class, and in the long run this shows.

For example, when the fed did their last interest rate increase near the end of 2018, the stock market essentially revolted, with a "huge" correction (to about august 2017 values). The federal reserve acquiesced to pressure and proceeded to take a much more dovish tone, following with 3 rate cuts the next year.

There's another story there about a trade war, low inflation, and sustaining an expansion. But if you take a look at a long term graph of interest rates over time from 1980 to present, you see a trend of going down, down, down. It just so happens that interest rates going down also inflates asset values.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the asset-owning class that populates the federal reserve often makes decision that benefit those who own assets.

Re: The Real Class War

#216

Post by hnuser77 »

tristor wrote: post #184

This article is interesting, partly due to the blatant political biases which are present but unrevealed, and partly due to the attempt to address those biases in closing segments. This line in particular was telling "the state—the only way to address the most important issues of the present". The author of this piece is a left-wing statist, and they interpret all of the data they reference through this lens. That do…

The state is the entity that signed all the free trade treaties in the first place — that enabled the outsourcing and let the production be moved out of the country — and still has the power to set tariffs and industrial policy. So the author's argument is that the only way to fix these problems is through state power.

Re: The Real Class War

#217

Post by xwowsersx »

helen___keller wrote: post #215
xwowsersx wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but that's an argument that the person that the "working class" voted in has been ineffectual in bringing about the change they are looking for (debatable). That's not an argument that they are not decisive in shaping politics. If electing Trump is a referendum on "the elite" then his election proves the opposite, no?

I think I might agree with the author in a more limited context, that on an institution by institution basis there is a fair amount of power that is outside the reach of voting and hence outside the influence of the working class. An example here is the federal reserve. Interest rate decisions and quantitative easing decisions are vastly influential, and famously independent of the president. I don't subscribe to any…

I agree with your points generally, but I don't think these are the claims put forward in this article. The article makes sweeping generalizations without any basis (AFAICS).

Re: The Real Class War

#218

Post by JackFr »

jhallenworld wrote: post #200
Wh1skey wrote: post #165

The story of Rome’s fall is both complicated and relatively straightforward yet it eerily resembles America: The state became too big and chaotic; the influence of money and private interests corrupted public institutions; and social and economic inequalities became so large that citizens lost faith in the system altogether and gradually fell into the arms of tyrants and demagogues. If all of that sounds familiar, we…

One part of it was that times were better when emperors were selected based on ability instead of by heredity. https://medium.com/@samo.burja/how-roman-emperors-handled-th... https://www.britannica.com/topic/Five-Good-Emperors

One might argue that times were best when there were no emperors.

Re: The Real Class War

#219

Post by aetherson »

anigbrowl wrote: post #211
fluorocarbon wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortal Republic is not about the fall of Rome. It's about the fall of the Republic, or the transition from a republic (oligarchy) into an empire (monarchy). Rome in fact reached its largest extent about a hundred years after the fall of the Republic, under the emperor Trajan. When people talk about "Rome's fall," they're usually referring to the decline of the western half of the empire which happened 400-500 years a…

The GP didn't say it was about the fall of Rome, and nothing in the post suggests to me it was intended to be understood that way.

I mean, his first sentence included the phrase "the story of Rome's fall" and nothing between there and the book suggested he'd changed topics.

Re: The Real Class War

#220

Post by frockington1 »

squiggleblaz wrote: post #167
frockington1 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there can be more equitable distribution. I struggle with why seizing wealth through taxes is the current war drum being beat. I think the most productive means to making wealth would be stressing the importance of investing and compound growth as part of the high school curriculum. Note: That's where my idea ends right now, I don't have a viable implementation path

How can you invest when you have to decide whether to fix the car or eat? The rules aren't fair, they're made by the rich. Learning how to follow them won't make you richer because they're designed to increase the wealth at the top. Almost no-one advocates seizing wealth hrough tax. Merely work (income). Since the rich have wealth and the poor work (earn income)

Learning how to follow rules is exatly how to become rich. Entry level retail store now pays 15/hr. 60 hours at week equates to 48k/year. Hardly unfair
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