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Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

abc.net.au

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Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#211

Post by Nasrudith »

viraptor wrote: post #162
int_19h wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You opt into participating that process by accepting the job, though. So from Australia's perspective, the way to comply with their law is to not take such jobs, and to leave if the process changes prevent you from complying.

I think you're inventing scenarios here that are too unlikely even for a pretty corrupt country. There probably exist laws in a number of countries which would technically jail you for taking some not-explicitly-illegal job. But this is absurd. Unless you're an actual lawyer giving opinion here?

I think if you trust people to not be corrupt you will wind up with corruption. A bad law is one that requires the empowered to not abuse it. A good law can't be abused. Harsh and cynical but true - reducto ad absurdum giving someone the legal power to murder anyone and relying on it to "not be abused" is a law literally bad enough to be causus beli for a civil war.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#212

Post by [deleted] »

opportune wrote: post #68
mastazi wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for providing a better source - reality is more nuanced than what most news outlets want you to believe, but unfortunately hiring practices are influenced by public discourse, and unfortunately the prevalent message out there is "don't hire Australians"

It might be cheaper foor a business to just not hire Australians than to hire a lawyer and dedicate bizdev time to figuring out the intricacies and nuance

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#213

Post by village-idiot »

viraptor wrote: post #165
opportune wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be cheaper foor a business to just not hire Australians than to hire a lawyer and dedicate bizdev time to figuring out the intricacies and nuance

It is not cheaper than getting sued for discrimination. Which would be easily proven in many cases, seeing how many people are more afraid of a potential issue with another country's intelligence agencies then of publicly posting about their plans to violate their own employment laws.

You can’t be sued for discrimination based on the employees location, which is actually the issue at stake here. Citizenship doesn’t appear to be relevant.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#214

Post by Nasrudith »

mastazi wrote: post #62
shitloadofbooks wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is "it's complicated." See https://github.com/alfiedotwtf/AABillFAQ

Thank you for providing a better source - reality is more nuanced than what most news outlets want you to believe, but unfortunately hiring practices are influenced by public discourse, and unfortunately the prevalent message out there is "don't hire Australians"

The fact we have to ask is unacceptable in the first place! The same way you shouldn't have to ask if there is polonium in your tea. Given the easiest and most sensible solution is the same in both cases - dump it because it isn't worth the risk.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#215

Post by mises »

philliphaydon wrote: post #96
mastazi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

So developer discusses with his boss. Developer A adds back door. Developer B then patches back door. Boss fires developer A. Developer A then uses this TAR crap to sue government for forcing him to do something and lose his job. I can’t see the government being able to defend itself. We elect the government to serve the people and the decisions of the government are negatively impacting the people no matter which wa…

> We elect the government to serve the people

Quit making me laugh, buddy. Unfortunately, I think we all know that once they get their office, they do very little to serve the people. Not sure about the case with Australia, but you can't sue the American government unless it lets you. Otherwise, it just claims sovereign immunity. Wrong as that is, it's a very good defense as it keeps them out of court. This might lead the employee to sue the employer ("I was complying with a lawful government order; you can't fire me for that!"), making Australians even more of a liability.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#216

Post by AdmiralAsshat »

philliphaydon wrote: post #96
mastazi wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, Australia’s law enforcement could compel Apple to provide access to a customer’s iPhone and all communications made on it without the user’s awareness or consent. An engineer involved would, in theory, be unable to tell their boss about this, or risk a jail sentence." Source: Sydney Morning Herald https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/dangerous-o... That would be a 5-year jail sentence appare…

So developer discusses with his boss. Developer A adds back door. Developer B then patches back door. Boss fires developer A. Developer A then uses this TAR crap to sue government for forcing him to do something and lose his job. I can’t see the government being able to defend itself. We elect the government to serve the people and the decisions of the government are negatively impacting the people no matter which wa…

Considering the number of times I've seen a developer quickly patch something and deploy their private build to the customer (not maliciously, but because the customer is screaming and needs it right now and wouldn't wait for normal QA process), I don't think it would be terribly difficult for the compromised developer to create a malicious binary outside of the committed codebase.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#217

Post by josephg »

crawrey wrote: post #163
ggm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem seems to be the provision that a tech worker can be coerced by the Australian Government into creating a backdoor, and they are not authorised to disclose it to their employer. As I read it, the law requires warrants and court enforcement. I don't think you can be required to backdoor code in secret or held to account by the security agencies not to inform your employer. I would be very surprised if tat w…

> I don't think you can be required to backdoor code in secret or held to account by the security agencies not to inform your employer. This law gave the government the power to do just that. Details of implementing a backdoor in secret is close to impossible, as any developer would know. There was a post[1] made by "Alfie John" (alfiedotwtf) that outlines a scenario in which a developer is presented with a Technical…

Could you reasonably argue that you can’t implement this feature without your boss finding out?

Let’s say I work at a place that requires mandatory peer code review. I won’t be able to slip something by my (non Australian) reviewer. Surely I could reasonably argue that the government’s request to insert a backdoor without telling anyone is impossible to comply with. How would the government be able to verify my claim that that’s the case?

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#218

Post by throw0101a »

perilunar wrote: post #190
jacques_chester wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on your criteria. But it's a wealthy country with a high standard of living, relatively safe and stable, with well-established democratic and legal systems, has relatively low corruption, safety nets for health and welfare, subsidised education and if you avoid the crocodiles it can be very pleasant in parts.

Also, Australia ranks well above the USA on most indices of economic freedom. e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

This is put out by the Heritage Foundation. You may want to read up on their ideologies before deciding that a rating of "good" from them is something you actually want to achieve.

For example, their affiliations are: Republican Party, Thatcherism, Reaganomics.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation

Even a broken clock is right twice a day (as the saying goes), but I'm not sure I'd really strongly rely on their policy ideas.

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#219

Post by throw0101a »

jacques_chester wrote: post #64
microcolonel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But don't kid yourself: Australian citizenship is profoundly valuable. Relative to what other citizenship?

It depends on your criteria. But it's a wealthy country with a high standard of living, relatively safe and stable, with well-established democratic and legal systems, has relatively low corruption, safety nets for health and welfare, subsidised education and if you avoid the crocodiles it can be very pleasant in parts.

Canada meets a lot of these criteria, though the climate may not agree with everyone--though at least we don't have a plant that causes you to suicide yourself (gympie-gympie)

* https://curiosity.com/topics/the-suicide-plant-has-the-most-... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides

Re: Microsoft says encryption laws make companies wary of storing data in Australia

#220

Post by Mirioron »

jacques_chester wrote: post #66
otachack wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's so much ambiguity in this, though. Can't the complying Australian employee simply nudge his/her coworker and say "hey, patch this later" and then it's just a game of back and forth with the Australian government not having their way in the end?

I wouldn't advise this. Defying or subverting a lawful order can itself be a crime and you can bet the Crown Prosecutor and the Judge have seen far more attempts than you have.

Can you imagine what would happen if there was a public case where a person got 5 years for letting the world know that the Australian government tried to force them to backdoor software? You don't really even need proof, because if he's sent to prison then his claim is true.

Right now the risk from Australia is theoretical. After that there could actually be bans from other governments about using software made in Australia.

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