EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter • Hacker News Board

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#211

Post by kodablah » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

koffiezet wrote: post #205

kodablah wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tend to put GDPR and this Copyright bill in different camps [...] GDPR is very far from perfect, but I think it's still directionally good Depends on the context. I tend to see how one begets the other. GDPR is good by intent, but is bad by implementation. The copyright bill is bad by both intent and presumably implementation. And since it turns out that only implementation matters, many would agree that we'd be…

> GDPR is good by intent, but is bad by implementation. What is so bad about the implementation? Genuinely asking, I went through making a few companies compliant - and companies that were treating their data and security responsibly, had only little or even no issues at all to get their things in order. One of the great things about the GDPR is that it clearly defines WHO is responsible if something goes wrong. The…

> What is so bad about the implementation?

Several things, but I'll be brief. Basically the same problems its predecessor had: lack of enforcement, inconsistent enforcers across countries, subjective enforcement, attempts at global internet governance, and not providing substantial benefit compared to the costs. They took those implementation failures and instead of scaling back and doing a measured approach to understand what went wrong, they exacerbated it by adding more burdens on businesses and increasing scope chilling many businesses into spending money out of fear of compliance or regionalizing their online presences. All of that with hardly any practical effects makes it a clear net negative, and couple that with the fuck-with-the-global-internet mandate they were given and we've ushered in a scary internet big brother, cheering the whole way. All to prevent tracking and data sharing. Compare the harms, compare the results, compare the costs, and it becomes clear that while we all want the implementation to achieve its goals, in practice it is more bad than good.

You should be wary of using your personal business anecdotes to justify impositions on the rest of businesses. The "I can't see any problem means there aren't any problems" is not an inclusive mindset.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#212

Post by kodablah » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #210

kodablah wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, you're saying it matters during design. Sure. I am talking about after passed, the intent matters very little. Too often on the GDPR and other legislation in effect, the intent is used to judge effectiveness which is invalid. When a law on the books is not working right, what it was trying to do is not an argument in favor of it working right.

> I am talking about after passed, the intent matters very little. The intent matters precisely because of how the law is going to be enforced when passed.

But since its enforcement can be completely contrary to the intent, intent only matters to the enforcers if they want it to matter. The actual enforcement, whether intended or not, is what really matters.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#213

Post by XCabbage » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #207

XCabbage wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the issue here is that a plain English reading of the GDPR implies such appalling totalitarian overreach that most people find it hard to believe that it can really be what's meant. I mean, you've just agreed with my reading that the GDPR gives me the power to reach into your personal inbox and censor your records of communications with me. That sort of power for bad actors to carry out historical rev…

> I think part of the issue here is that a plain English reading of the GDPR implies such appalling totalitarian overreach that most people find it hard to believe that it can really be what's meant. Do you think this level of hyperbole is necessary?

In what sense do you think I'm being hyperbolic? I'm pretty sure I mean every word of what I wrote literally.

(Though perhaps "authoritarian" would be a better choice of word than "totalitarian"; I mean it only in the broader sense of "infringing unjustly on individual freedom" and not in the stricter sense of "mandating total subservience to the state" that a Google 'define:' search yields as the first result. I thought it was correct to use "totalitarian" in the former sense, but don't have time to confirm; if I'm wrong, and that word choice is what you take issue with, then I'll concede that it was an erroneous word choice and I should've written "authoritarian" instead.)

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#214

Post by hannasanarion » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:16 PM UTC

vgoh1 wrote: post #198

merijnv wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of the GDPR makes things difficult for your side business? Every discussion I run into has people claiming this sorta thing, but my reading of the text make it fairly clear that for 90% of non-despicable use cases there's really not that much of a problem...

My "despicable" side business is (was) making Android apps with Admob ads. I needed to update my app to allow EU users to opt out of targeted ads. Why Admob doesn't just add this functionality to their widget they place in my app is beyond me. In order to update my apps, I need to target a newer version of Android. It's not that it's very outdated, they were targeting Android 5.0, and get updated every 6 months or so…

So, this has nothing to do with your business, and everything to do with admob illegally spying on your users.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#215

Post by anfogoat » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

A small, idiotic part of me wishes this actually passed. Let's just get this over with as quickly as possible. Let the EU purge their bottomless need to "save" the world and write as many regulations as they have in them, or can be influenced into, and maybe eventually the deluge will touch enough citizens so it becomes clear that this much concentrated power was a mistake.

It's not like this not passing will matter anyways because there'd be another attempt, and then another, and another, ad infinitum. The EU would clearly have passed this thing thousand times over already if it wasn't for the pushback from its subjects, but you only get the pushback on the first couple of attempts. Eventually, people's interest fade. They've got shit to do, can't police their representatives each waking moment, and foolishly assume that a representative body will honor the will of their far away constituents, should the same matter ever again be decided on. So really, as long as there's the EU and special interests that want this, it's pretty much a sure thing this will eventually be passed.

With the GDPR, it seemed like the EU turned into a PR firm that mounted a massive union wide marketing campaign but there's no such effort this time. Is this the difference between EU's own pet projects and directives where they're just a clueless underwriter?

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#216

Post by kodablah » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:22 PM UTC

apexalpha wrote: post #196

So many people here compare this to GDPR... I can recommend everyone to just read the EU website on GDPR: https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/refo... they write the official website in understandable language, in plain and simple English, not in weird lawyer talk. They have examples for companies as well. What to do, how to act etc.. Forming your opinion about these laws based on what the big Amer…

I think people compare it to the GDPR based on amount of internet big-brother it imposes and other prior-restraint requirements on internet businesses. Telling someone to compare the wording is unrelated to the general concerns of oversight. The unfortunate part is that these contrarian opinions are assumed to have been formed from big American companies and people who haven't read the documents. You shouldn't so quickly assume ignorance.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#217

Post by deorder » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

merijnv wrote: post #177

sjroot wrote: post #3

Policies like this make it glaringly obvious how little our government representatives around the world understand technology. It almost seems malicious, or at the very least anticompetitive. Who has access to such filtering systems already, or the resources to create one? GRPR regulations, while I absolutely realize their necessity, have made it difficult for me to expand my side business into the EU. This would jus…

What part of the GDPR makes things difficult for your side business? Every discussion I run into has people claiming this sorta thing, but my reading of the text make it fairly clear that for 90% of non-despicable use cases there's really not that much of a problem...

A client, a large pharmaceutical company, asked me to remove everything that could potentially violate the GDPR from their Android / IOS app. Apple rejected the update despite me stating the reason for the update, because the app could have been a website instead. Some of the functionality I had to remove was mobile specific, like reading measurements from a medical device etc.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#218

Post by AsyncAwait » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:36 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #212

AsyncAwait wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am talking about after passed, the intent matters very little. The intent matters precisely because of how the law is going to be enforced when passed.

But since its enforcement can be completely contrary to the intent, intent only matters to the enforcers if they want it to matter. The actual enforcement, whether intended or not, is what really matters.

> But since its enforcement can be completely contrary to the intent, intent only matters to the enforcers if they want it to matter.

Right, and my argument is that with legislation intended to serve the people, (GDPR), enforcement is likely to be much closer in line with the intent than say Article 13, which is the other way around, (serving corporations, not people).

Enforcers are newer as aggressive when protecting individuals as they are when protecting corporate interests. Apart from corruption, this is simply because of the leverage corporations have that individuals lack, (control of the flow of capital).

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#219

Post by hannasanarion » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #211

koffiezet wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GDPR is good by intent, but is bad by implementation. What is so bad about the implementation? Genuinely asking, I went through making a few companies compliant - and companies that were treating their data and security responsibly, had only little or even no issues at all to get their things in order. One of the great things about the GDPR is that it clearly defines WHO is responsible if something goes wrong. The…

> What is so bad about the implementation? Several things, but I'll be brief. Basically the same problems its predecessor had: lack of enforcement, inconsistent enforcers across countries, subjective enforcement, attempts at global internet governance, and not providing substantial benefit compared to the costs. They took those implementation failures and instead of scaling back and doing a measured approach to under…

How can you possibly have complaints about how GDPR is enforced? No regulators have enforced it yet, the first GDPR case ever is expected to be heard in late February.

This reads like a generic batch of "law bad" mumbo jumbo with "gdpr" dropped in like a mad lib.

Re: EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but Don't Use Upload Filter

#220

Post by hannasanarion » Tue, Dec 11, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

orangecat wrote: post #199

ryandrake wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does GDPR remove user freedom?

It forbids letting users exchange their information for access to a service. (Because you can't disallow access if they don't agree to data collection). You can say any such deal is inherently bad and users shouldn't have that option, and you might even be correct, but it's still a restriction of freedom.

> Because you can't disallow access if they don't agree to data collection

Yes you can, if the data is necessary to provide the service. If the data is just generic spying for profit, completely unrelated to the service provided, then you shouldn't be asking for it in the first place.