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Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

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Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such research actually. Look at the studies by Kanin, Jan, and their replications. The topic of what proportion of allegations are false is studied from time to time, but not often, because the studies that are done usually report eye-wateringly high figures. In the UK, official government research put the figure at 10% of all (rape) accusations being false. But if you read the reports, you'll see that the t…

This is interesting, and coheres with my working hypotheses about this subject. I'm planning to write a paper about this subject. Which paper do you mean by Jan and what replications have you got in mind? And where do you recommend I look for the UK figures?

Sure. Here are some citations if you want to do further research.

A word of warning. I've found that there is a shocking rate of lying about these studies, both in other academic papers and the media. Moreover you have to read the papers carefully because they're often written by people with an explicit agenda (to minimise the false reporting rate - exception is Kanin who appers to have no agenda). You really have to watch out and not take any claims at face value, even when they'd appear to be in credible reports from credible sources. It's very sad but it appears that in a rather meta way, the topic of false reports of rape is dogged by false reports about studies of false reports about rape!

The idea that the rate of false reporting is very high is probably once of the most controversial and dangerous topics in our society today. If you write your paper you are very likely to be attacked for it, at least if your paper is based on police report data. Good luck!

Kanin, 1994

https://ia800209.us.archive.org/4/items/FalseRapeAllegations...

He reviews police reports for every single rape allegation in an unnamed American town, selected because the police department had the time and resources to investigate every allegation thoroughly. In 41% of the cases, the allegation was false. In this study, for a report to be considered false the accuser had to agree it was false. Thus the true rate must be higher, as there was no real incentive for the women to admit they lied to the police. The study provides data on the motives for why the false allegations were made.

Note the appendix. The original Kanin study was done on an unnamed American town. In the appendix they replicate the findings in a US university. Actually the percentage there is slightly higher at exactly 50% false reports (admitted false by the accuser).

The data Kanin provides on why false allegations are made has been replicated by the Dutch police:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313830325_Motives_f...

This Dutch replication doesn't examine the percentage of all claims that are false, just the motives for cases proven false.

Jan Jordan, 2004

http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/4925HomeComput...

This study examines New Zealand police reports and replicates Kanin, by finding a 41% false reporting rate. The paper is horrendously biased, but nonetheless contains useful ground truth data about the NZ police conclusions in a large number of rape reports. The breakdown is:

- Genuine cases, 21%

- Uncertain/insufficient evidence, 38%

- Police investigated and concluded the complaint was false, 33%

- The complainant themselves said their own report was false, 8%

If we add together 33% and 8% we get 41%.

The paper goes into a lot of detail if you're looking for material.

Finally, the UK study is here:

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218141141/ht...

It states that in 9% of cases the claims were considered false by the police. This is quite far off Kanin and Jan, so what's going on? Again, it requires careful reading. About 20% of all reports are "no crimed", that is, the police classify the report as "no crime occurred". This classification is intended for very narrow and unusual situations like the original report being made accidentally, but the prevalence shows it's not being used like that. The UK has put considerable pressure on its police to always 'believe the victim' etc, and they appear to have come up with this way to minimise the number of reports classified as false. It should be clear that if someone files a report of rape (which can't really be accidentally reported), and the police conclude no crime occurred, this is the same thing as a false report. These two categories take the UK to 29%. Lower than Jan and Kanin but still very high. The missing chunk is probably the category where the accuser withdrew their police report so investigation did not continue. These reports may or may not be false. This study also contains some data on motives.

One theme that crops up in quite a few of these papers is that when police officers are interviewed and asked to estimate the rate of false reports, they give rates in the 40-50% range. In media reports you will frequently see a rate of 2% being quoted, so this is an exceptionally large difference in perception between journalists writing about the topic and police who deal with it. The UK study has some anonymised quotes from police talking about the problem.

There are many posts in this discussion thread stating that men are wrong to worry because "the statistics prove false allegations are not a problem". That claim appears to be false: replicated studies show the problem is vastly larger for rape than any other crime (false report rate for murder is ~2%). Men are probably right to be wary.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is cowardice. That's offensive. These men have the right to do displays of virtue (such as only talking with an open door). Why do you presume that men must risk their jobs ? It sounds like some some macho-requirement.

> Why do you presume that men must risk their jobs ? It sounds like some some macho-requirement. One of the cornerstones of their entire industry accounting for the uncertainty of the future. They're already risking their jobs (and, indeed, their companies) every day. Contrast that with a statistically insignificant number of false accusations. If they are truly afraid of false accusations (like they say) rather than…

You're looking at this with statistical, risk management. There's a subset of risk management that focused on what's called "catastrophic," risk management. That's when the impact of the event, which is rare but can happen, is so high that one is willing to go the extra mile to prevent it. This includes obvious examples like nuclear powerplants having ridiculous security or classified systems being air gapped with dedicated, physical lines. However, there's less-obvious cases where the same thinking is employed:

One company's head of security at WTC started doing evacuation drills after the 1990's bombing thinking something destructive to whole building is worth having a plan for. He said all but 5 people got out in 2001. In same place, a bank was running OpenVMS clusters on high-quality hardware with a far-away site in case something happened to the building (standard concern, too). They claimed those nodes were the last thing that failed with no transactions lost. Everything else was destroyed.

People often consider hurricanes, tornados, flood levels, wild fires, and earthquakes before moving into an area. Lots of folks avoid Tornado Alley and the Southern/Southeastern Coast for that reason. One person thinking floods might get bad in Texas put an inflatable, rubber circle filled with water around their house. It was only one floodwaters went around instead of through. Likewise, the Hurricane Architecture article said author [statistically-unnecessarily] went with dedicated servers and architecture for super-high volume. Became main source for news during flood for entire state with tons of traffic. Kept folks informed.

Lots of people either don't put political/religious/relationship/work information social media or periodically delete it to make digging up previous dirt on them harder. It either takes no effort (former) or small effort (latter). The endless volume of folks getting quoted before being slammed online or being fired at work suggests this is a rational practice. Also, as Schneier says about crypto, the number and effectiveness of such attacks seem to go up overtime where traditional, risk assessment is nearly impossible.

Certain appliances, like toasters and tumble dryers, cause a disproportionate amount of homes to be destroyed. Many homeowners make sure they're only used when someone is there to react to damage. For toasters, some people also unplug them when not in use (idk if that matters). At least "person is there" is a costless precaution that prevent loss of entire home.

Another which is sometimes labeled discrimination is folks staying out of the hood to avoid being violently assaulted. There's quite a few hoods in Memphis, TN near me. Most people, regardless of race or gender, avoid them if they can since they don't want to be mugged, raped, beaten, or killed. When weighing that, people consider the psychological effect it would have on them. If they don't live there, the choice is (a) go meet people, do stuff, etc where I almost certainly won't experience violence or (b) go do same stuff where said violence is reported (or not) several times a day in those same places. Most people, again all groups, do (a) to avoid cost of (b) since it's never worth it to them. Some do (b), though, for a variety of reasons. Just saying it to acknowledge they exist.

In the main article, these are rational, successful people are similarly facing a catastrophic risk that's got an entire movement behind the tools that make it work. They don't know odds of it happening but do know the cost is end-of-career and frequency is increasing. They are rightly thinking in terms of catastrophic, risk mitigation where the entire class of risk is mitigated since the cost is unbearable. Although I disagree on specifics, they're definitely right to mitigate a catastrophic risk increasing in frequency. It's what they usually do. Me too.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting, and coheres with my working hypotheses about this subject. I'm planning to write a paper about this subject. Which paper do you mean by Jan and what replications have you got in mind? And where do you recommend I look for the UK figures?

Sure. Here are some citations if you want to do further research. A word of warning. I've found that there is a shocking rate of lying about these studies, both in other academic papers and the media. Moreover you have to read the papers carefully because they're often written by people with an explicit agenda (to minimise the false reporting rate - exception is Kanin who appers to have no agenda). You really have to…

Thanks. That's super useful. I had not seen the UK studies you mention.

Shockingly, the UK government document you cite explicitly suggests "Expanding the concept of ‘real rape’".

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, I was using the term "Violation of a woman's integrity". According to you, both 1 and 2 can be described that way. Listen you are right in part. Like when people talk about drugs being ba-a-a-a-d. Is cocaine bad? Yes Is the war on drugs justified by this? No Same here. You are talking about a real problem. You are suggesting solutions that hurt everyone involved and then acting like if someone doesn't agree with…

You can’t swing a cat without finding a victim of sexual harassment who felt violated by harassment even if it wasn’t physical. Your physical body isn’t the only part of you that exists, if you are harassed to the point where you don’t feel safe living your life because of the threats posed to you wouldn’t you feel violated? Your life has been compromised. If you mean “physically violated” then sure, you cannot be ph…

Sorry mate, you have good points but they don't justify the reasoning.

If a person is being harassed by a colleague and they're not cool with it, then the next step is reporting it and trying to get that person out of their life.

> You cannot be physically violated by words, but I don't see the value in making that distinction.

Maybe I can point out the value for you... Americans and humans in general have an inalienable natural born human right to say, in general, whatever they wish. There's value in human rights. On the other hand, any kind of physical touch can be interpreted as assault if the recieving party doesn't consent.

> Why does it matter if he hasn't escalated to committing the acts he threatens yet?

Because expressing their rights to speech isn't illegal. Not only is it not assault, but it's not even close to assault. You're miles away from actual physical assault. In terms of logical progression.

Edit:

> for some women a physical assault can be far less violating than a daily campaign of verbal harassment.

Can you explain this, because I'm entirely unconvinced.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#216

This was utterly, utterly predictable, and I'm sure the same dynamic is playing out in milder, more insidious forms in industries that are less openly regressive than Wall Street. I said as much to many of my friends during the nascency of the movement, and was baffled at how novel a concept it seemed to all of them. This isn't fair to women, of course. But Water flows downhill, and people follow incentives. If you c…

> I'm still sympathetic to the idea of examining whether we should shift the burden of proof for cases with characteristics that are systematically difficult to prove (not in the criminal justice system, of course; I think society-sanctioned state violence does and should have a much, much higher bar for protecting the innocent).

Could you explain this? It almost sounds like you're interested in foregoing proof to decide cases where 'proof is hard'.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#217

This sort of fear-based hypercorrection, a misguided but not necessarily ineffective form of risk avoidance, happens in many walks of life. The same calculus is at the root of non-lower-class whites (as well as nearly everyone of high status) in the US avoiding neighborhoods with blacks and latinos. To them, the visible race serves as a proxy to all sorts of unpleasantness they wish to avoid, purely on correlation, a…

> The same calculus is at the root of non-lower-class whites (as well as nearly everyone of high status) in the US avoiding neighborhoods with blacks and latinos. You know what I'm black, my spouse is white, and what do I tell her? "better safe than sorry". Sure if my spouse acted that way, we would have never met. I believe in personal responsibility, I also believe we have a responsibility to display an image other…

You're not wrong, but business is different than personal life.

Within my family and the people I trust, I'll say and do things that outsiders might not approve of, and it's none of their business. However in a business, the entire point is just business, and whatever it takes to make it better. The intersection of business and personal-trust is the grey area. Should I be square all the time at work, and mitigate as much risk as possible? Or can I relax on my break and try starting a conversion with the attractive woman eating by herself?

The #meToo movement has shown that the grey area is certainly 'risky'.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#218
post #94

This sort of fear-based hypercorrection, a misguided but not necessarily ineffective form of risk avoidance, happens in many walks of life. The same calculus is at the root of non-lower-class whites (as well as nearly everyone of high status) in the US avoiding neighborhoods with blacks and latinos. To them, the visible race serves as a proxy to all sorts of unpleasantness they wish to avoid, purely on correlation, a…

>False accusations of sexual assault, by all indications, are rare, Personally I've seen just about as many false accusations as true ones. It's not always the woman that makes the accusation, some men use it to hurt other men they don't like.

This year I was falsely accused of stealing a girl's phone while in line for a dance club.

A gaggle of probably-too-young girls started screaming about losing their phone, then they turned to me, who's alone in line, and loudly accuse me of stealing it. I screamed back at them and called them dumb, earning eyeballs from everyone around. After about a minute one of them finds their phone and they all just pretend like nothing happened.

In an alternate universe, I was assaulted by the jocks in line who believe women first without evidence.

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#219
post #216

This was utterly, utterly predictable, and I'm sure the same dynamic is playing out in milder, more insidious forms in industries that are less openly regressive than Wall Street. I said as much to many of my friends during the nascency of the movement, and was baffled at how novel a concept it seemed to all of them. This isn't fair to women, of course. But Water flows downhill, and people follow incentives. If you c…

> I'm still sympathetic to the idea of examining whether we should shift the burden of proof for cases with characteristics that are systematically difficult to prove (not in the criminal justice system, of course; I think society-sanctioned state violence does and should have a much, much higher bar for protecting the innocent). Could you explain this? It almost sounds like you're interested in foregoing proof to de…

It's not a very well-formed idea, but it comes from the fact that I think that carefully-considered pragmatic exceptions to general rules can be valuable.

For a simple example, many people don't understand what it is about markets that make them powerful[1]. That doesn't preclude any economic role for government, since markets aren't perfect and there are cases where govt action is more suited to the situation.

Along the same lines, and taking a set of claims at face value: if there's an epidemic of rape and various institutions are systematically underserving victims, then it may make sense to shift that burden. I wouldn't say "forgoing" proof when proof is hard, but changing the standard of evidence. Proof isn't binary: for example, the "preponderance of evidence" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" standards for civil and criminal trials are pretty different. For a directly relevant example, I'm not very incensed by institutions cutting ties with Dr. Cosby and Harvey Weinstein despite the lack of a criminal conviction, and I don't think it's very controversial that decades of independent accusations may reasonably add up to a bit more than the initial presumed innocence. It's the formalization of this new standard (which many/most already agree to) that I'm open to.

Of course, this is all theoretical. I don't think most people are remotely capable of handling even the bare minimum of nuance we're talking about here, so it's much more likely that we end up overshooting the target and doing blind damage to the concept of due process. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[1] I've had conversations with people on HN itself about how Uber's pricing would be more just and just as effective if they did it manually instead of using the distributed pricing system we call supply and demand

Re: Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

#220

So as a father of two daughters in their 20's, this makes me sad. Instead of attempting to see women as equals and moving to bridge the gap -- the best solution Wall Street can come up with is to further isolate themselves? Why can't these men just learn to treat women like the humans they are?

I've never been in a car accident, and hopefully that day will never come. Yet I wear a seat belt every time I'm in a car.

Chance of getting falsely accused of anything sexual is on average probably very slim, but the fallout of such an accusation can be devastating.

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