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Why Aren't There C Conferences?

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Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#211

Post by nineteen999 »

steveklabnik wrote: post #203
nineteen999 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The game engine segment is much like the operating system segment - the size, momentum/inertia of the incumbents (ie. UE4, Unity as an analog to Linux, Windows etc) make it rather difficult for new entrants, especially for ones written in languages that are not as popular as C or C++ (eg. Rust). It's simply too hard right now to find enough programmers proficient in Rust who could assemble a competing product, IMHO.

I'm excited to see what happens with Embark Studios; EA SEED started using Rust for stuff, and Embark is a new studio founded by some ex-DICE/SEED folks that's doing everything in Rust. There's also Ready at Dawn and Chucklefish...

Chucklefish 2D games or what have you are a far cry (no pun intended) away from a high performance 3D engine like Unreal though. And from what I can find on EA SEED they are mostly using it for server side and pipeline stuff, rather than the primary rendering engines for their 3D games. I'd love to stand corrected if this isn't the case.

Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic, and I'd like to see it happen. Although I was a C/C++ holdout at first, I'm starting to come around to the Rust way of thinking, even if I don't like a lot of the terminology and the "RIIR" crowd are completely annoying.

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#213

Post by crispyambulance »

badpun wrote: post #113
crispyambulance wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, why would anyone want to waste time lifting their nose briefly from their employer's grindstone to get exposed to new colleagues, new ideas, and new business opportunities?

They are a waste of your employer’s time. For you they’re great, you’re still getting paid, but don’t have to work.

    > They are a waste of your employer’s time...
Yet it is employers who [often] pay for employees to go to these things? Hmmm, why do you think that is?

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#214

Post by simias »

mikestew wrote: post #19

Because though there might be building trades conferences, there are no hammer conferences. Oh, there will be tool vendors at the building trades conferences, there might be sessions on "Efficient Hammering Techniques Using Machine Learning", but there are no conferences about hammers. Don't forget about the blacksmith conference next week, they'll have hammer vendors, too. I dunno, a Ruby conference kinda makes sens…

I agree. I'm mostly a C coder but I've been on the Rust train since pretty early and I remember being pretty confused when they started putting emphasis on the Rust branding with logos, the whole "rustacean" thing, conferences, forums etc... In hindsight I get it but originally there was a bit of a culture shock. I mean I don't wear C T-shirts and as far as I can tell there's not really a standard C logo either.

Maybe we should find a cool demonym like "c-lions" or "c-weeds" or whatever. Then we'll be able to ask the real questions like "is C webscale?".

Now I'm being a bit snarky but I genuinely understand why newer languages need branding nowadays, but in the case of C that ship has sailed long ago, you don't really need to introduce it, it's just C.

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#215

Post by welly »

StreamBright wrote: post #159

Why arent there hammer conferences? IT is the only industry that is super obsessed with tools.

And woodworking.

Have you seen the amount of tools and discussions/arguments just about the subject of making joints??

Pocket holes vs mortice and tenons vs dove tails vs dowling, etc. etc.

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#216

Post by mar77i »

DonHopkins wrote: post #115
mikestew wrote: post #19

Because though there might be building trades conferences, there are no hammer conferences. Oh, there will be tool vendors at the building trades conferences, there might be sessions on "Efficient Hammering Techniques Using Machine Learning", but there are no conferences about hammers. Don't forget about the blacksmith conference next week, they'll have hammer vendors, too. I dunno, a Ruby conference kinda makes sens…

Hammer conferences typically get rolled up with Discuss conferences. http://www.european-athletics.org/athletics-community/coache...

I C what you did there very well.

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#217

Post by VHRanger »

Conan_Kudo wrote: post #160
ddevault wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. C should is adding langauge features at a pace other languages could stand to emulate. C is stable, trusted, and supported everywhere for this very reason. Codebases should not be using extensions, and Linux is wrong to do so.

The problem with not allowing language extensions to be used is that it promotes the staleness of the language. Just as human languages evolve as people use and adjust it, programming languages evolve as people start trying to change it to better suit their needs. The difference with human languages and programming ones is that there's a relatively easy process to get everyone in sync on how it changes for programmin…

C is used more as an API than a language.

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#218

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

phoe-krk wrote: post #202
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shell scripts just slap commands together. You could just be a human interpreter reading the source and get the job done. C is a much more fundamental requirement of SBCL. Much more so than in the way SCBL depends on Python, for example (e.g. it doesn't). Listen, I get that in the ivory tower of lisp you don't like looking at the little C bricks at the bottom, but the fact is that they exist and C is a hugely importa…

Sure, all of us execute stuff on kernels that are written in either C or C++ or C# or Objective-C, utilizing runtimes that are written in the same languages and calling APIs that are defined by the C application binary interface. That family of languages isn't going anywhere and choosing C instead of raw assembly is often chosen out of practical reasons, such as code maintainability. Still, I find it hard to put an e…

I said "implemented" in C. I'd argue that the runtime == the implementation.

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#219

Post by steveklabnik »

nineteen999 wrote: post #211
steveklabnik wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm excited to see what happens with Embark Studios; EA SEED started using Rust for stuff, and Embark is a new studio founded by some ex-DICE/SEED folks that's doing everything in Rust. There's also Ready at Dawn and Chucklefish...

Chucklefish 2D games or what have you are a far cry (no pun intended) away from a high performance 3D engine like Unreal though. And from what I can find on EA SEED they are mostly using it for server side and pipeline stuff, rather than the primary rendering engines for their 3D games. I'd love to stand corrected if this isn't the case. Don't get me wrong, I'm optimistic, and I'd like to see it happen. Although I wa…

Oh yeah, I don’t mean to imply chucklefish is AAA.

I don’t have a ton of info about SEED, pretty much

https://twitter.com/gwihlidal/status/1065036212220698624 says

> Halcyon itself is still largely C++, but a lot of data pipelines and servers are written with rust, and quite a few rendering experiments, as well. Enough pieces are being developed to build up enough critical mass for 3D, though!

and https://twitter.com/repi/status/1031877154261422080

> Nope, but our next revision of Halcyon is built using Rust

but Embark claims that all their stuff is Rust-first. There’s some other rumblings at other places, but they’re just that, rumblings. As I said, excited to see what happens; it hasn’t happened yet!

And yeah, RIIR is annoying for sure.

Re: Why Aren't There C Conferences?

#220

Post by simias »

tpush wrote: post #64
mikestew wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the ones you list, only one has a wide focus, IMO. Three of those will essentially be web development conferences, and I don't know what the hell people do with Go these days, but I'll bet it's mostly a handful of things. Python probably has broad enough usage and scope to counter what I said. The exception proves the rule. :-)

I mean, there's CppCon as mentioned in the article, and C++ has pretty much the same wide reach as C.

C++ is a wildly unstable language compared to C. Every new standard brings a slew of new coding paradigms and features, often changing the way to write C++ code pretty fundamentally. On top of that C++ is a hellish beast of a language of such tremendous complexity that you can probably host hundreds of conference where you'd teach even experienced C++ coders things they don't know. They won't run out of material any time soon.

Meanwhile a C conference would have a hard time coming up with interesting content year after year IMO. You'd end up having to talk about how C is used more than C itself, but then you're no longer really doing C-con, you're doing "embedded-con" or "high performance trading con" etc...

I agree with the parent when they compare C to a hammer, it's a super useful tool and I'm glad that we have it but it's not like I could talk about it for hours (or hear somebody else talk about it for that matter).

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