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Hire people who aren’t proven

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Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#211

Post by mixmastamyk »

jimmy1 wrote: post #27
FLUX-YOU wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The passion/craftsman culture changed when we started selling our souls for the next ad-click or personal information collection system. While it might have seemed good back then, we now have a massively cobbled-together web ecosystem. I know it's a cheap shot, but those same passionate people built the crap we have today. I don't think it speaks very highly of that time or the merits of passion. (many individuals ha…

> The passion/craftsman culture changed when we started selling our souls for the next ad-click or personal information collection system. I am really passionate about the information collection system I work on. I do my best to ensure data isn't leaked, everything is secure and encrypted. If you would like to offer a solution to the fact that the vast majority of people in this country now expect software to be free…

> do my best to ensure

Good to hear. The next dev, manager, owner on the team is not likely to be as conscientious however.

Once information is collected it is rarely deleted, so trust in random third parties is still not wise.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#212

Post by ConcernedCoder »

snowwrestler wrote: post #29
maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

By all means, you should use whatever criteria you would like to hire your own staff. But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily. But in…

Say what you will, but who would you rather have take out your appendix? The doctor who worked nights and weekends to put him/herself through medical school because it was the love of their life and their dream to help people?... or the guy/gal who only chose the same career path for the money?

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#213

Post by luckydata »

freehunter wrote: post #128
daveslash wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but I'd like to add to the "did you treat any diseases in high school". I knew someone in high school who wanted to be a doctor. She didn't cure any diseases or perform surgery, but she did read all that she could and was fascinated by medical-themed tv & movies. She had been inspired by her pediatrician when she was young. She did't treat people before becoming a doctor, but from early on she had t…

On the other hand, it's hard enough to expect 18 year olds to know what they want to do with the rest of their lives, if we only hire people who showed passion in high school now we're pushing that all the way back to 14 years old. I didn't even know my career existed until after my freshman year of college, but no one I work with would say I'm not passionate about what I do.

I don't think the issue is when people show passion for anything but if. I started playing guitar late in life, but it's a consuming passion of mine. I fell in love with programming early, and out of love with it during college. That's why I moved in a lateral field (product management) where the skills I learned are useful but it's not required of me to do something 10 hours per day that I really don't love. I love my current profession, I spend a lot of time privately to study and get better every day, I work on building my toolset of templates and a strong reference library. I think that's the important part, showing dedication to improvement.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#214

Post by patientplatypus »

What amuses me more than anything else is that this dystopia was created by software developers. Oh everyone is going to a bootcamp and saturating the dev job market? Maybe you shouldn't have "disintermediated" every possible job from accountant to truck driver. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#215

Post by nomel »

tomnipotent wrote: post #37
laurentl wrote: post #10

> 1. Can this candidate do the job? I'd go so far as to ask: "can this candidate learn to do the job?". In our recent job postings, I've started adding a specific paragraph after the desired qualifications stating more or less "if you don't tick all the boxes above but are motivated to learn and grow, please apply. We'll teach you what you need to do the job" > 2. Will this candidate be motivated? This. Even more tha…

>> 3. Will this candidate get along with coworkers? > Duh. But also, how do you actually test objectively for this without introducing bias? You can't because it's a bs metric like "culture fit". After about a dozen people, you can no longer ensure people will get along or like each other. I only have five brothers but I don't even like all of them. People have quirks, and it's easy to find reasons to pass on candida…

I disagree that this is a bs metric.

When I look for personality, I'm looking three things:

* How they ask questions for things they don't understand

The problems I give are directly applicable but I leave a few slightly vague. Someone really experienced could fill in the missing pieces easily, but usually this doesn't happen. I then ask them if the problem makes sense or if I missed anything. If they can't tell me that the problem isn't clear, or they need more information, then they'll have trouble working with a team trying to solve and communicate problems.

A mediocre candidate will say that the problem isn't clear with "I don't understand". A good candidate will explain what they don't understand. A great candidate will ask for clarification on the vague piece without much fuss.

* Reaction to not knowing something.

I have a hard problem that I give at the end. I clearly tell them it's not expected to be solved and that I just want to talk about how it might be approached. If they get angry, say "oh I know how, just give me 5 more minutes" then stand there blank, etc, then they're not going to fit in a team that is trying to solve hard problems together.

A good candidate will stay calm and provide any sort of input, ask any sort of questions, or show any sort of interest. Sometimes people get nervous here, so I keep this very very lighthearted.

* Are they full of themselves/assholes

This is pretty evident within the first few minutes, and really rare (and almost always accompanied with a stream of buzzwords after every sentence).

A good candidate won't be an asshole.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#216

Post by emilfihlman »

ConcernedCoder wrote: post #212
snowwrestler wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all means, you should use whatever criteria you would like to hire your own staff. But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily. But in…

Say what you will, but who would you rather have take out your appendix? The doctor who worked nights and weekends to put him/herself through medical school because it was the love of their life and their dream to help people?... or the guy/gal who only chose the same career path for the money?

Both are probably just as qualified because of standards. Also, those in it for the money have to do extremely well to earn that money. They can't just hand waive stuff regarding surgery.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#217

Post by rpedela »

ConcernedCoder wrote: post #212
snowwrestler wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all means, you should use whatever criteria you would like to hire your own staff. But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily. But in…

Say what you will, but who would you rather have take out your appendix? The doctor who worked nights and weekends to put him/herself through medical school because it was the love of their life and their dream to help people?... or the guy/gal who only chose the same career path for the money?

How could you tell the difference?

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#218

Post by maxxxxx »

scarface74 wrote: post #119
maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

Looking from the outside, you might assume that I have a “passion” for development. I check all of the boxes. - started programming in 1986 in AppleSoft Basic and 65C02 assembly language. - graduated with a degree in CS - I can bit twiddle pretty well and spent the first 12 years of my career doing C. - I read blogs, post in technical discussion, listen to podcast, etc. - I have up to date AWS certifications. Etc. Bu…

Just the fact that you read blogs and post in technical discussions shows that you care to improve your craft and don't just wait for somebody to tell you what to. There are no hard criteria to define "caring" but I like people to do something. Read stuff, know at least a little about the latest trends, think about ways to do things differently, try out things and so on.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#219

Post by parthdesai »

mirko22 wrote: post #135
parthdesai wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what about when companies these days exploit the term "caring"? I like programming as much as the next person here but i'm not going to code 80 hours a day. I also like going to gym and working out, riding my bike, playing soccer and hanging out with friends. Companies these days expect you to have side projects or contribution to popular open source libraries while having a job. Oh and did i mention asking you q…

On the other hand imagine how much you would learn if you could spend all you gym and bike time learning computer science and other things (not saying you should but the more time you out into something usually you know more about that thing). Also I think knowing data structures is essential cos you are using them ALL the time you just don’t know it cos you never bothered to learn them. But they are corner stone of…

>On the other hand imagine how much you would learn if you could spend all you gym and bike time learning computer science and other things (not saying you should but the more time you out into something usually you know more about that thing).

On the other hand imagine how much could you get done if you worked 16 hours a day. Why even take vacation? Imagine how much time you are wasting when you are off on vacation. Oh wait, studies have shown that amount of hours sat in the chair doesn't translate directly into quality work. It might work when you are doing it occasionally as a one-off but won't work everyday.

>Also I think knowing data structures is essential cos you are using them ALL the time you just don’t know it cos you never bothered to learn them. But they are corner stone of every program.

Did i say that? I know what a graph, BST, Tree, Linked List, Stack and Queue is. Do i know fancy algo's off the top of my head? No. But i also know how and what to google and how to convert that pseudo-code into actual working code.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#220

Post by jl2718 »

amorphous wrote: post #103

I recommend "Why Employees Are Always a Bad Idea" by Chuck Blakeman. It describes how to build a company where everyone is a stakeholder and not a child that needs constanct watching and stupid rules in order to function. No titles, no working hours, unlimited vacation time, you hire the whole person (not just the BS smile at work part). You work together because you want to find and make meaning. No CVs and skills a…

Can you please share what you think is the best example of a large tech-ish company that operates like this?
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