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Hire people who aren’t proven

leonardofed.io

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Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#21

Post by chrisseaton »

lvh wrote: post #17
chrisseaton wrote: post #13

I don't see how 'hire people who aren't proven' can be compatible with 'can this candidate do the job'. You want to know if they can do the job, but you aren't interested in any proof for that?

You could, instead of relying on a resume to determine if someone can do X, ask them to do some X instead of an interview, and then use an objective rubric to decide if they did X to some level of satisfaction. This is called work sample testing and it works great.

I think that only works for the most trivial things.

You can do a work sample test for 'can this person add a view to a Rails app', but not for example for 'can this person build a team and develop a solution to a complex technical problem in a specific domain'.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#22

Post by saosebastiao »

Aeolun wrote: post #11
maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

After 10 years, most veterans have learned not to care. Or at least, not care too much.

I've learned to reciprocate care. I owe no loyalty to a company that refuses to appropriately value my contribution.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#23

Post by FLUX-YOU »

maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

The passion/craftsman culture changed when we started selling our souls for the next ad-click or personal information collection system.

While it might have seemed good back then, we now have a massively cobbled-together web ecosystem. I know it's a cheap shot, but those same passionate people built the crap we have today. I don't think it speaks very highly of that time or the merits of passion.

(many individuals had passion back then and would be strongly against today's web practices -- I do get that)

When you start peeling away the layers of the career, the actual craft is only a portion of today's work. If I could code 8 hours a day, I would. But it's hard to spend a day in the workshop with that passionate, quiet, productive focus.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#24

Post by chii »

vorpalhex wrote: post #12

I think this is good advice... for larger companies with well established patterns. One of the issues of a startup is that the founders are breathing down your neck and often don't care a whole lot about "well designed software" (or want to overbuild mvp products). Standing up to management, building best practices, and being agile while still pushing back when needed against founders/sales isn't easy but it's someth…

> It gives newer engineers more opportunity to succeed in areas where they are strong

or just gives people who can fit a mould succeed, but doesn't allow someone who is creative and can think outside the box to shine as existing beaurocracy bogs down the smallest of change.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#25

Post by ghaff »

dalore wrote: post #16
Aeolun wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 10 years, most veterans have learned not to care. Or at least, not care too much.

I would say us old timers learn to be more picky about what we care about. It's a finite resource.

That's a great way of putting it. "Choose your battles" in other words. I look back and I can remember getting very wound up about some things that just didn't matter. And, today, I shake my head a little bit at people for whom every single little thing is something to man the barricades over.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#26

Post by getaclue »

As someone who is currently looking for a job I can definitely relate to the troubling HR in software field. What I started doing is working on my own content to help recruiters decide if I am what they are looking for. I added more information about ME, what I am passionate about, what I was passionate about previously, and what I am looking for to my about page (https://getaclue.me/about).

This way, recruiters can decide if they like me or not. Another thing I started doing while reaching out to companies is saying that I am open to 3-6 months "tryouts" if you wish.

I feel like we should have more of those. I also realized that social media is very powerful for finding your way in 2018. Gone are the days of wanting to work at a Fortune N company because they are doing great work. Most of those unicorns turn into corp machines that they were trying to stay away from.

Another thing I started doing is looking for people that share my passion. Anecdotally, Forums, IRCs, Telegam and the such communities are definitely booming once again thanks to the dissolution of privacy.

One challenge - esp if you are someone who cares about software and software engineering field - you have to do A LOT more work on your own. I work full-time and I work when I get home. I don't see this changing.

EDITed to add some \n

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#27

Post by jimmy1 »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #23
maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

The passion/craftsman culture changed when we started selling our souls for the next ad-click or personal information collection system. While it might have seemed good back then, we now have a massively cobbled-together web ecosystem. I know it's a cheap shot, but those same passionate people built the crap we have today. I don't think it speaks very highly of that time or the merits of passion. (many individuals ha…

> The passion/craftsman culture changed when we started selling our souls for the next ad-click or personal information collection system.

I am really passionate about the information collection system I work on. I do my best to ensure data isn't leaked, everything is secure and encrypted. If you would like to offer a solution to the fact that the vast majority of people in this country now expect software to be free (save, some AAA video game titles), I am all ears. Until then, I am going to be passionate about what I do, but realistic as well as I have a family to provide for.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#29

Post by snowwrestler »

maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I think hiring has become more difficult now that programming has been discovered as a well paying mainstream career. When I started in the 90s most people I worked with had a passion for the craft but now I find we interview a lot of people who have a CS degree just for the career prospects but not out of interest for the craft. I find it much easier to deal with someone who has no relevant experience but cares vs s…

By all means, you should use whatever criteria you would like to hire your own staff.

But in general, I would encourage folks in computer tech industries to be hesitant to assume such a binary approach to evaluating prospects. "Did you code for fun in high school?" might be a useful question now, because software development as a field is so young that high school students can try out significant work easily.

But in most high-end professional fields, that's not true. Imagine asking a prospective medical resident "did you treat any diseases in high school?" or "how much surgery do you do in your spare time?"

I think we should take it as a positive sign that people are approaching software and computer technology as a professional career that they can professionally pursue. That approach can produce great work too, and a growing field means a greater diversity in how people find and display their passion. Getting a CS degree is not easy, and requires some base level of interest and commitment to complete. Even a bootcamp is not free, and takes some focus and work.

Anyone above a certain age (like me) came into the industry sideways, as it was developing, as a result of personal passion and interest. Let's not mistake that for an inherent property of a good tech employee... every industry on Earth started that way at some point.

Computer technology industries are maturing, just like railroads, oil development, aviation, telecommunications, and dozens of other industries have over time. That's not bad, and we will have to take it into account as we consider the model employee.

Hiring people who are "not proven" might also mean hiring people who are well trained, but maybe have not yet proven their passion in a way you recognize.

Re: Hire people who aren’t proven

#30

Post by ryandvm »

dalore wrote: post #16
Aeolun wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 10 years, most veterans have learned not to care. Or at least, not care too much.

I would say us old timers learn to be more picky about what we care about. It's a finite resource.

Bingo. As an "old timer", it's not that we don't care; we still love the craft as much as ever. It's just that we are at a point in our careers where we can afford to have a much lower tolerance for bullshit.

Manager says "let's have a weekend pizza party hackathon!!!" and the old-timers are the first to recognize and decline the opportunity for unpaid overtime fixing bugs.

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