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Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

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Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#211

Post by dpkonofa »

freeone3000 wrote: post #171
vmarshall23 wrote: post #152

This has long driven me crazy. I have a version of this argument with my wife every few weeks. I live in a city that has three bins: compost, landfill, and recycling, and overall the city (SF) does a really good job apparently of sorting trash. But if you want a system that doesn't break down if someone throws a handful of batteries in the compost bin, then someone or something somewhere still has to sort the trash s…

Single-stream recycling is a good alternative to this, and has been implemented in Austin. They essentially take your idea to the limit - if someone has to go through it anyway, why not just put it all in one big bin and sort it out later? So they do. Mostly works?

According to the article, that doesn't work at all, though. Not only does the stuff not get sorted properly in the end but things that could have potentially been recycled are now unable to be recycled because they're contaminated.

That doesn't sound like a "mostly works" scenario except in the most bare definition of the phrase.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#212

Post by maxerickson »

Whenever you think about plastic consumption, remember that gasoline weighs about 6 pounds a gallon.

Especially remember this if you drive to the grocery store and are precious about plastic bags.

I mean, please do make sure they end up in a properly managed waste stream, but maybe consider what to prioritize.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#213

Post by athenot »

samatman wrote: post #43

Startup I will never get around to: A store which sells only bulk and fresh food, and durable containers: mesh bags, Mason jars, glass bottles. Every container, dispenser, and display has a scale, and unlocks with a nearfield chip. Enter the store, tap phone or insert chip card, get a card. Fill up your cart, stick the card back into the slot, get charged, done. One customer service kiosk for buying back clean contai…

There's a network of those in France, called "Day by Day". Most items are sold without packaging. Apparently they started in 2013.

http://daybyday-shop.com

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#214

Post by dpkonofa »

jcoffland wrote: post #99

It's incredible that corporations are allowed to pump out massive quantities of single use plastic and then we blame the consumer for not recycling it. The idea that the solution is to change the habits of billions of people rather than enforce some rules on a few thousand companies is just crazy.

Not only that but consumers can be punished for not recycling or disposing of these things properly and yet corporations not only don't have punishments for this stuff but they're incentivized to further increase the quantities produced and, on top of that, make them cheaper which further increases the likelihood of the items being non-recyclable.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#215

Post by wiredfool »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #162
jklinger410 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also reminds me, in a way, of the argument I always make about water waste. Yes, it is great to keep your faucet off if you aren't using it. And yes, if enough people keep theirs off, it will make a big impact on water waste. But as an individual, or a neighborhood, you will never waste as much as factory farms, chemical processing, and many other industries. Add to it the fact that these companies produce these…

But the water you and I waste by leaving the sink on, goes back to the water supply. It is not like drywall manufacturing, where the water is tainted and should not be put back into the supply.

Sort of, but not really. The water on the input side of your tap is much more valuable than the sewer side.

It's not usable for drinking water, it is usable for greywater purposes. If you've got a septic system, it'll go through that into the local ground water, if not, it'll go into the septic sewer and eventually to a treatment plant, and from there a river.

If it was originally aquifer water, you've taken (likely) high quality water from a diminishing resource and put it in the environment.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#216

Post by c22 »

dboreham wrote: post #39

The underlying problem is that manufacturers of things we buy have been permitted to "externalize" part of their supply chain cost (onto the rest of us). So the fix would be to un-do that : if you sell something, you have to take back all the waste and packaging. Probably not going to happen, but this is the real problem.

Or just charge manufacturers a "packaging tax" based on weight and composition of any materials included with a product but not part of said product. You could use the money to pay for better sorting of the waste stream.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#217

Post by maxerickson »

jschwartzi wrote: post #59
gascan wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some recyclables are really valuable (metal, quality cardboard), but others that we really want to recycle aren't particularly (plastics, glass). Also, morons throw shocking amounts of obvious trash into the recycling stream, which is a huge pain for recyclers, and thus can significantly devalue what should otherwise be a profitable stream of recycling.

What's obvious trash? I look at the labeling on recycling and compost cans in my area and I honestly have no clue what I can recycle and what I can't. My choices are to throw away potential recyclables or recycle trash. People aren't morons, you've just built a bad system. And to clarify, I'm talking about recycling bins in fast food restaurants and grocery store delis. I've got a pile of used paper and plastic that…

Cat litter, needles, food, yard waste, diapers, etc.

Lower your expectations a bit, the people doing the worst aren't wondering what to do with a clean plastic fork.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#218

Post by wutbrodo »

mcny wrote: post #126
ryandrake wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be in favor of requiring manufacturers to take back unneeded product packaging, paying for postage if necessary. EDIT: Reading more of this thread, it looks like everyone is suggesting this, so my comment does not add much. So why is this obvious solution not implemented?

> So why is this obvious solution not implemented? I have no inside information but I think it is because manufacturers will collude to add this as a visible added cost to the cost of the product. Consumers will think stuff became more expensive because of some idiots in DC/Brussels.

It's a collective action problem like any other. Collusion on a wide scale in competitive markets is pretty damn difficult, since one company can change their manufacturing processes to produce less waste and suddenly undercut everyone else's prices. "Passing the whole price increase onto the consumer" rarely withstands scrutiny, excluding cases with very low demand elasticity or very oligarchic suppliers. Neither of these are the case for the vast majority of packaged goods that are sold.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#219

Post by dd36 »

dougmwne wrote: post #65

This is a classic externality problem. We can berate consumers all day long to be more diligent in their recycling, but all that finger wagging is for show meant to distract from the real source of the garbage, the manufacturers. Just like the classic "blame the user" mentality, the users were given an impossibly complex system with barely any incentive to get it right. Nothing about the interface is intuitive or dis…

Completely agree. In school, we studied the concept of producer responsibility. It's treated as radical even though it neatly fits into seemingly all ideologies. It allows the market to be efficient and it solves the problem of pollution. You need a beat cop though as the incentive to cheat is there.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#220

Post by jaggederest »

supertrope wrote: post #31
jaggederest wrote: post #10

I'm always confused why we aren't pyrolyzing refuse and reusing the hydrocarbons in them. It's energetically and monetarily expensive, but both costs are more or less paid for by the output products and input products, as far as I am aware. And you get out fairly high quality fuels.

Air pollution is worse than landfills. Incineration increases our exposure to heavy metals and dioxins. Burning plastic is a fairly nasty process and can only be done "cleanly" at very high temperatures. Trash also contains stuff like batteries that explode when burned.

Not incineration. Pyrolysis, in an anoxic environment. It's the same process by which syngas is produced, except that the results are longer chain carbons and thus just have to be cracked and distilled rather than Fischer-Tropsch'd into usable feedstocks. You use about 30% of the input mass of organics to power the process (usually the lightest fraction that is equivalent to syngas), and the result is about 10% waste material and 60% usable mass fractions in the fuel-to-wax range, just like a normal oil refinery.
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