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Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

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Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#31

Post by supertrope »

jaggederest wrote: post #10

I'm always confused why we aren't pyrolyzing refuse and reusing the hydrocarbons in them. It's energetically and monetarily expensive, but both costs are more or less paid for by the output products and input products, as far as I am aware. And you get out fairly high quality fuels.

Air pollution is worse than landfills. Incineration increases our exposure to heavy metals and dioxins. Burning plastic is a fairly nasty process and can only be done "cleanly" at very high temperatures.

Trash also contains stuff like batteries that explode when burned.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#32

Post by cperciva »

idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

In Vancouver we have standardized waste bins which come in different sizes, and the amount you pay the city annually for waste collection depends on the size of bin you choose.

(Recyclables are handled separately and there's no charge for them regardless of the volume you're leaving for collection.)

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#34

Post by colechristensen »

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where people are allowed to vote and drive cars and own guns who can't figure out which bin their garbage belongs inside.

I have never lived in a place where the instructions weren't provided and clear.

Here are some instructions from Sweden. There are 10 categories. I think there could be more.

https://www.affarsverken.se/Documents/Renhallning/Sorterings...

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#35

Post by lyjackal »

r00fus wrote: post #24
Reedx wrote: post #4

It's way past time to start pricing in externalities. More of a push to "reduce and reuse".

Lets start with the supply chain. Don't just dump this on consumers. I want to see less individually plastic wrapped/boxed fruit.

Exactly. In addition to regulation on what is okay packaging, if producers somehow had more responsibility for where the end waste goes, it would encourage a closed system

It's in corporations interest to shift the responsibility entirely in the consumer

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-per...

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#36

Post by idoh »

protonimitate wrote: post #5
0xcafecafe wrote: post #3

Hence it is always important to remember: reduce, reuse and recycle, in that order. You don't have to recycle if you can reuse.

While I agree with that order of operations so to speak, I'm not sure why the responsibility is pushed onto consumers. It's hard to make a choice when it comes down to plastic, plastic, or plastic. What is being/can be done to get companies to stop using plastic in packaging? I understand that it is necessary for a lot of modern conveniences, but surely there is something that can be done to curb the production and u…

It is completely possible to orient purchases away from plastic. In fact if someone believes that plastic is bad then they should have some stake in it by making those decisions themselves.

I went through reducing my plastic use myself, it was not difficult to reduce my plastic use by 50% or more:

A: look at my trash before I move it to the curb to see what plastic things were in there

B: find substitute for the obvious things, like using water bottles, buying vegetables using reusable bags instead of buying them in packages, switching to a non-plastic dental floss, etc

... and that is all. Companies respond to consumer demand. You can play a part in it by orienting your demand to non plastic items.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#37

Post by jdavis703 »

aeternus wrote: post #22
idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

Is careful sorting of trash/recycling really a good use of time? Seems better to put that effort towards development of techniques to sort en-masse. Likely controversial, but I think there is also an argument for simply throwing hard-to-recycle items in a landfill. If consumption continues to increase, it will likely become economically viable to eventually mine those landfills for raw materials.

I'd say yes it is a good use of our time. I really want ours to be the generation that stops punting problems out to the next generation. I'd be happy if my friend's children don't need to grow up worrying about how to deal with oceans filled with plastics, global warming induced fire storms and flooded coastal cities.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#38

Post by oldcynic »

gambiting wrote: post #25
gaius wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which costs about $5 for a pack of 20 I’ve never understood why recycling wasn’t self-sustaining, isn’t there value in the raw material? When I was young reusing was the thing; a glass milk bottle went back to the dairy was sterilised and used again the next day. One bottle, with a recyclable aluminium foil lid, could be used again and again and again. Nowadays we make a glass bottle, use it once, then melt it down a…

It's always cheaper to make new packaging than recycle old one. It's extremely hard to make any sort of business out of recycling old material. Like you said, reusing would help - but glass has the issue of being very heavy so you're burning more fuel to move it around, while it only takes a drop of oil to make a new plastic bottle that weighs 1/20 of an equivalent glass one. I'd love to see all drinks being sold exc…

I wish this myth would die, or we fully priced-in the externality cost of plastic recycling.

Look into the roughly 15 step process of recycling those cheap plastic bottles, including pressurised steam, abrasive steps, cold and hot water, and chopping into pieces before yet more washing. It is probably vastly more expensive in energy costs, especially when after all that it's still common to lose batches to contamination. It's miles from returning bottles into the same supply chain and the factory having as first step washing and rinsing the old bottles.

Broken ones were recycled in place, and they were already of exactly the correct type and colour.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#39

Post by dboreham »

The underlying problem is that manufacturers of things we buy have been permitted to "externalize" part of their supply chain cost (onto the rest of us).

So the fix would be to un-do that : if you sell something, you have to take back all the waste and packaging.

Probably not going to happen, but this is the real problem.

Re: Plastic recycling is a problem consumers can't solve

#40

Post by supertrope »

gaius wrote: post #15
idbehold wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should start doing something like what Taiwan did with their trash: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/separation-anxiety/ > The trucks only accept trash bags officially sanctioned by the government of Taiwan which come in a distinctive blue color, complete with an official seal. The bags range in price and size, from 3 liters to 120 liters. The most popular bag is 25 liters (similar to a tiny bathroom…

which costs about $5 for a pack of 20 I’ve never understood why recycling wasn’t self-sustaining, isn’t there value in the raw material? When I was young reusing was the thing; a glass milk bottle went back to the dairy was sterilised and used again the next day. One bottle, with a recyclable aluminium foil lid, could be used again and again and again. Nowadays we make a glass bottle, use it once, then melt it down a…

Recycling is only economically viable if:

cost of production from raw material > production from recycled material

and

value of recycle material > cost of recycling

My guess on milk bottles is some kind of sanitation and product liability issue.

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