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Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#211

Post by ummm32 »

cptskippy wrote: post #201
quadrangle wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give benefit-of-the-doubt, I think they believe their own propaganda. Facebook folks actually believed that (e.g. among many) pushing people to reveal all aspects of their life equally to everyone was in society's best interest. And I once met a Facebook employee who actually was a staunch EFF supporter… But overall, I dunno… you're probably right.

It takes a certain degree of naivety to believe that. It also lacks a certain degree of critical thinking to not ask the question "but what if some people choose not to share?" or the even easier question "can any of this be abused?"

Could have been just the best possible shot to avoid a neo-totalitarian society, and the current abuse could be actually a minor consequence (and completely manageable for nation states > take a look at EU GDPR).

"move fast and break things" > Why the hurry?

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#212

Post by tyrionsrke »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #138
tyrionsrke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating the issue of informed consent with access ubiquity. Simply because the data was gathered in a way not unlike most apps, doesn't make it a non-story. In fact, the lack of informed consent and the very misleading statements to Congress make it a huge story. User data is a commodity, and is worth far more than money. Considering how easily manipulated large portions of the Facebook community can be (e.…

There is no issue of informed consent here. When you upload data, you consent to your allowed friends being able to view that data in whatever manner they see fit. These device specific interfaces to facebook is just an example of this. FB themselves took reasonable steps to ensure the device manufacturers adhered to the consent that users give when adding data to the site (i.e. only use the data in service to displa…

>There's no evidence of any of this.

I disagree. I think Facebook, driven by ad dollars, is attempting to secure as many users as it can. Part of that is to make it as seamless and convenient as possible.

Data as currency is a given at this point. Facebook ensures longevity through ease-of-use. Service providers secure further assets, and are in a position to use it.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#213

Post by tyrionsrke »

bobdole1234 wrote: post #133
tyrionsrke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating the issue of informed consent with access ubiquity. Simply because the data was gathered in a way not unlike most apps, doesn't make it a non-story. In fact, the lack of informed consent and the very misleading statements to Congress make it a huge story. User data is a commodity, and is worth far more than money. Considering how easily manipulated large portions of the Facebook community can be (e.…

If these people are so easily swayed and manipulated, what exactly is informed consent supposed to cure?

Informed consent is simply that -- being able to consent without missing a piece of knowledge.

It may cure nothing. But the fact remains that Facebook acted (and continues to act) in bad faith to the user.

Maybe nothing changes, especially now that users are so deeply attached. Real-time targeted advertising has been around since the early 2000s, but explain to the average tech-illiterate user that their phone can hear when a Tide ad is on television and can serve a Clorox ad in their Instagram feed, and watch how uncomfortable they get.

How much of this could be stopped with informed consent.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#214

Post by Trundle »

cryptoz wrote: post #131
hackinthebochs wrote: post #117

This and the discussion here is obnoxiously bad. Facebook gave some device makers special APIs to access authorized data. This is literally no different than a web API or scraping facebook HTML, just more streamlined. What you guys seem to be objecting to is that non-facebook code was able to interact with authorized user data. But that is a necessary feature of displaying data of any kind (unless facebook owns the e…

> This is literally no different than a web API or scraping facebook HTML, just more streamlined. I see you're using the new definition of literally, the one that means figuratively. In the same sentence you have said it is no different and then said it is vastly different. Your post makes no sense. Even if you were right that the data is 100% hash-compatible, SHA-1 it and get the same data as the API (you're wrong),…

FYI

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/misuse-of-lite...

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#215

Post by [deleted] »

bobdole1234 wrote: post #206
arthurofbabylon wrote: post #47

Most notable pieces I took from the article: 1) Facebook does not see third parties (such as BlackBerry) as “third parties.” 2) Facebook told Congress that it disabled third party access to user data, but in actuality did not. My own strong interjection: Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics. Somehow, Zuckerberg has been able to convince a lot of smart people to do unethical things and build un…

They're not third parties because these API's are protected by user login credentials as near as I can tell. That means you provide your login information, and your device can access your Facebook data, as you expect a client of Facebook to be able to do. That means all the privacy protections from the "website" are there, you're just not looking at it through a browser, it's an interface provided by the device manuf…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#216

Post by Iv »

ailideex wrote: post #93
Iv wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that "bad behavior" is a concept in flux. Facebook never hid what their business model was: sell your personal data to third parties. Only a few privacy activists were concerned. Others reactions went from "meh" to "it's actually smart!" (Remember when Obama's campaign was praised for its innovative approach profiling voters?). It took Cambridge Analytica for people to realize that they did not want th…

> The problem is that "bad behavior" is a concept in flux. Facebook never hid what their business model was: sell your personal data to third parties. So not to interrupt the outrage mob here ... but facebook did not sell data to these companies. And actually I'm not aware of any case where people are outraged where facebook sold peoples data, including the Kogan case.

Sure: http://fortune.com/2018/03/20/facebook-congress-cambridge-an...

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#217

Post by ramblerman »

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #47

Most notable pieces I took from the article: 1) Facebook does not see third parties (such as BlackBerry) as “third parties.” 2) Facebook told Congress that it disabled third party access to user data, but in actuality did not. My own strong interjection: Facebook’s competitive advantage is its disregard for ethics. Somehow, Zuckerberg has been able to convince a lot of smart people to do unethical things and build un…

Facebook's competitive advantage is that they gained critical momentum as the platform we all started using post myspace, etc.

There are plenty of companies that are willing to do 'unethical' things.

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#218

Post by joesb »

RyanZAG wrote: post #108
joesb wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do not make claims that there are no abuses How can any honest people make such claim? It is the same as proving the non-existence of abuses.

I think point of above is more that it's in their interests to make sure they never do any checks, so no doubt they never do any. They could probably catch 99% of abuses by just specifying it in the contract with the 3rd party, but they have't done that.

How do you know that they didn't already catch 99% of the abuses, but it's just that 99% is still zero?

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#219

Post by _Tev »

tyrionsrke wrote: post #212
hackinthebochs wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no issue of informed consent here. When you upload data, you consent to your allowed friends being able to view that data in whatever manner they see fit. These device specific interfaces to facebook is just an example of this. FB themselves took reasonable steps to ensure the device manufacturers adhered to the consent that users give when adding data to the site (i.e. only use the data in service to displa…

>There's no evidence of any of this. I disagree. I think Facebook, driven by ad dollars, is attempting to secure as many users as it can. Part of that is to make it as seamless and convenient as possible. Data as currency is a given at this point. Facebook ensures longevity through ease-of-use. Service providers secure further assets, and are in a position to use it.

>> There's no evidence of any of this.

> I disagree. I think ...

I think you misread "no evidence" as "no one believes".

Re: Facebook Gave Device Makers Deep Access to Data on Users and Friends

#220

Post by evincarofautumn »

cdubzzz wrote: post #94
evincarofautumn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NYT article is definitely overblown. It’s popular to hate on Facebook about privacy, and yeah, they’ve made mistakes in the past, but that’s largely because they’re just engineers trying their best to do the right thing. IMO they need more non-engineer types to inform them what “the right thing” actually is, when it doesn’t align with the typical attitude of “Oh, there’s a technical solution to this problem!” > t…

I generally agree with you that this piece is a bit sensationalistic but... > [...] they’re just engineers trying their best to do the right thing. What makes you say that? Beyond potential abuses of data by third parties (or whatever), I would expect that most FB employees are trying their best to get paid . Whether or not all or any single one of them cares about “the right thing” is mostly unknown to outsiders. I…

I worked there in the past. Everyone I met was earnestly trying to do good work and afraid of getting fired or sued for doing something that would impact privacy and thereby FB’s bottom line. Facebook is strongly incentivised to protect user data because that is their primary market advantage—having ad targeting data that other ad networks don’t. Leaks and breaches of trust are bad for business and bad for the RSUs that employees and acquirees are given.
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