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New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

papersplease.org

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Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#211

Post by txcwpalpha »

teh_klev wrote: post #209
txcwpalpha wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From 2013: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10177765/Travellers-mo... Also a case in 2016 of a UK citizen being arrested for refusing to give his password to UK border police: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/25/campaign-gro...

Yeah, but I don't think it's a routine thing (I'll check with my pal who runs a borders team to be sure). I think you need to have been a specific target and person of interest for things to go that far.

That's pretty much the same "but it only happens to a small fraction of people so it's okay" deflection argument that you can say about the US policy as well, which you called "draconian".

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#212

Post by Zak »

debaserab2 wrote: post #201
CWuestefeld wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The immigration system is horribly broken. My wife, too, is an immigrant, and our experience is vastly different from yours. For example, they scheduled her for an interview on a date that was impossible for her to make (iirc, that was her first day of a new job). She went to the INS offices to ask to have it rescheduled, and the person at the desk just gave her a flat "no, we do not reschedule interviews". My wife a…

Wouldn’t an immigration interview trump any other reaponsibility a person has? I’d explain to my boss the situation and see if I can get my day switched way before I’d expect any government agency to shuffle things around for my work schedule (especially any agency that’s immigration related).

I'm sure it would if the conflict cannot be resolved, i.e. both the immigration officials and the boss are unwilling to accommodate the other requirement. Missing one's first day of work generally looks bad though, and trying to avoid that if possible is reasonable.

Attempting to reschedule an immigration interview doesn't strike me as unreasonable, nor does escalating to a supervisor if you don't like the answer you got. The employee calling security, on the other hand strikes me as abusive. I think that employee should be fired and probably not given a position of authority where they can mistreat others that way again in the future.

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#213

Post by JustSomeNobody »

cryptonector wrote: post #207

If you are a U.S. person they cannot deny you entry for not giving them your passwords, though they can keep your devices for some time.

I think I remember reading that they can still detain you "indefinitely" even if you're a US Citizen. Is that not correct?

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#214

Post by throwUsVisitor »

_jal wrote: post #156
benevol wrote: post #43

"In other words, CBP is now claiming the authority to confiscate your cellphones, laptops, memory cards, and any other electronic devices if you won’t tell CBP your passwords, and to retain the passwords you give them as well as the contents of those devices. Yes, this applies to U.S. citizens and permanent residents as well as visitors." That is just insane and unacceptable.

People need to push back. I know there's risk, but if you take this shit, they just keep pushing. I will be traveling with throwaway, obviously tailored devices with insulting passwords, lock-screens and documents and a huge pile of encrypted chaff. Let them document me as a troublemaker. Better, let them document hundreds of thousands of us as troublemakers. CBP and ICE have been drifting towards authoritarian-shith…

I'm happy to say that I do everything to make Border Control life miserable. I have big clients in US and while I generate for them big profits, I cannot accept payments due to my ethics. So I complained to legal divisions of my clients and asked to funnel money there. Every time I cross US border I refuse to show any data and insist on contact with my lawyers. And by my lawyers I always have big co legal divisions in mind. At average I spend 6 hours per border entry but I feel good about myself. I believe that Border Services still had worse that day.

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#215

Post by UncleEntity »

freeone3000 wrote: post #151
JoshTriplett wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not an expert in the applicability of that law, but if they're systematically asking people for passwords, that's not necessarily "addressed to a single person".

Paperwork Reduction Act is an attempt to reduce paperwork. Customs and immigration questions are not paperwork, despite how systematic they are. Consider if they have an OMB number for "Citizenship? Duration of stay? Purpose of visit?", the questions nearly every traveller gets asked. They don't. Of course they don't. They don't need one.

From the bottom of the Customs Declaration form:

PAPERWORK REDUCTION ACT STATEMENT: An agency may not conduct or sponsor an information collection and a person is not required to respond to this information unless it displays a current valid OMB control number.

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#216

Post by soundwave106 »

alerighi wrote: post #176

And you still call your country a democracy! If this doesn't change, I will never consider to move or even go on vacation to the USA, I might live in a state that has a lot of problems (Italy), but at least I have the right of privacy, and I can take a plane without having agents searching through my sensitive information on my devices.

Careful about this. This is one of those policies I can easily see changing at least for US citizens. (Hopefully they adjust the policy for everyone, but I'm less optimistic on this front).

The Supreme Court, in Riley vs. California (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_v._California), unanimously held that warrantless searching of a cell phone is unconstitutional (violation of the 4th amendment). The ACLU and EFF have filed a case largely on this basis. (https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/alasaad-v-duke-complaint)

My armchair thoughts on this is that it looks like their case is very strong, and the likelihood of this policy being struck down at least for US citizens is pretty high. Wouldn't mind a lawyer opinion, but at first glance I don't see a huge difference between the circumstances of Riley vs. California, and the cases represented here.

There are unfortunately people in this nation (as everywhere else) who are authoritarian oriented in nature, but there are also many in this country who push back. For US citizens, the best way to react to this is less Internet outrage, but ensure that one supports the ACLU and EFF, two organizations that have been critical in pushing back against the erosion of the 4th Amendment.

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#217

Post by maxxxxx »

FidelCashflow wrote: post #162

We should resist this by wasting as much time as humanly possible. How about carrying multiple data devices with brute force able encryption for meaningless data? Encrypted linux ISOs, 8051 datasheets, trivial C programs, etc. There's clearly a file structure in place, it's clearly not easily readable, the person who was carrying it will not (or maybe cannot because they genuinely don't know) divulge how to read it.…

If you have plenty of time sitting around while they work in your stuff and potentially being denied entry for the next few years you should absolutely do this.

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#218

Post by mLuby »

_jal wrote: post #156
benevol wrote: post #43

"In other words, CBP is now claiming the authority to confiscate your cellphones, laptops, memory cards, and any other electronic devices if you won’t tell CBP your passwords, and to retain the passwords you give them as well as the contents of those devices. Yes, this applies to U.S. citizens and permanent residents as well as visitors." That is just insane and unacceptable.

People need to push back. I know there's risk, but if you take this shit, they just keep pushing. I will be traveling with throwaway, obviously tailored devices with insulting passwords, lock-screens and documents and a huge pile of encrypted chaff. Let them document me as a troublemaker. Better, let them document hundreds of thousands of us as troublemakers. CBP and ICE have been drifting towards authoritarian-shith…

I understand your desire to push back. Having "opted out" at TSA checkpoints for a year, I can tell you that the righteous feeling does little to counteract annoyance from fellow travelers (especially those in my own party). Yes, en masse it would be effective, but until then it's not worth the individual effort IMO. Anyway, governments can't tolerate explicit affronts to their authority.

The better course of action is for us to work together toto make it

1. trivial for everyone to hide their data, and

2. trivial for everyone to maintain vanilla data for plausible deniability.

The end result is still a victory for privacy, but with far less friction with government at the individual level.

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#219

Post by gamblor956 »

saguro wrote: post #8
tehlike wrote: post #6

This should serve as a reminder to everyone to donate/support EFF and ACLU, as two of the very few organizations that watches for our rights. It is also a reminder that as we get more numb to issues like this, it gets worse. It is probably time to call your representatives and raise your voice.

Because calling paid-for representatives has such a strong record of success over the last decade of human rights erosion. Talking to your representative is roughly as useful in curbing these things, as doing nothing at all. What's the real solution?

Going to have to downvote you here since I've found that calling my representatives has been extremely effective.

Calling your rep, or meeting them in person, are the two most effective ways to communicate your concerns. Because people who take the time to call or meet in person are also the type of people who take the time to vote, and in the end that's what really matters.

Re: New DHS policy on demands for passwords to travelers’ electronic devices

#220

Post by maxxxxx »

tallanvor wrote: post #37
b6 wrote: post #12

Absolutely not. Having lived outside the US for two years (so far), I halfway expect to encounter suspicion when I return. I absolutely will not stand for this. I will not cooperate and I will resist as much as possible, short of violence.

As someone who has been living overseas for over 11 years, I can honestly say that US border control and TSA have the most unprofessional and disrespectful employees I've encountered in my travels. It's unlikely they'll ask to check your electronics unless they suspect you've been someplace like Syria, Iraq, etc., but nevertheless they'll look for any reason at all to question you as if you're a criminal. If foreign…

"I can honestly say that US border control and TSA have the most unprofessional and disrespectful employees I've encountered in my travels"

They really seem to be selecting for the biggest assholes they can find. I have had many weird or disrespectful encounters with them. Example: asking my American wife (I am German) " why did you not marry an American, but a foreigner". Who would ask such a question as the first thing?

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