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IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

nytimes.com

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Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#211

Post by hardlianotion »

iraklism wrote: post #146
screye wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say worse. IBM employees in India get paid around 500,000 rupees in India. A non-cramped 2 bedroom apartment in a decent area in the big cities (Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi ) will set you back 10,000,000 rupees easily. That is 20 times their salary. I'd say that's a higher multiplier per unit salary, than for the US. Also note that living just outside the city (as people in the US do) isn't always an option, unless…

London has a 30-40x. 50k salary 1.5-2mil GBP for a well size 2 bed in a good area.

That is an exaggeration, or your standards are much much higher than mine. I live in a good area that attracts bankers and minor celebrities. Flats of the type you describe are 500-600K. Still expensive...

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#212

Post by tdeck »

timthelion wrote: post #5

I think that this is a good example of how racism, conscious and unconscious is making us worse at predicting the future. Ten years ago, so many Americans were making jokes about poor quality Indian code and Indian accents. The idea of Indians actually working innovative jobs seemed laughable to many Americans. But there wasn't actually strong evidence that Indians were less good at doing cutting edge research. This…

I don't think IBM is a good example, because they've been exactly the kind of low-quality Infosys style body shop that people make jokes about. The only difference is that IBM is mining out their reputation (built up all through the 20th century up until the 1990s) in order to charge inflated prices to clueless enterprise customers. Remember, they were the ones that charged the TSA $1.4 million for a left/right randomizer app. If you've ever used a piece of 21st century IBM software, you probably don't remember the experience fondly.

There are companies doing great work in India (Zoho comes to mind). Why would anyone want to use IBM as the representative of Indian innovation?

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#213

Post by pm90 »

snambi wrote: post #174
majani wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as a counter to that, in third world countries, rent is often a way better deal all round, so if you're not hung up on home ownership, you can get by pretty well for less.

OTOH, rented houses are pretty bad, compared to owned houses in India.

This is most certainly not true. I don't deny there will be shitty houses for a drop-dead rents, but you can also get a fairly luxurious rentals in Mumbai and Bangalore, at least (I don't have personal experience with other cities).

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#214

Post by pm90 »

GordonS wrote: post #182
flarg wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've actually worked with and managed international teams for a number of major consultancy companies and outside of silicon valley I don't see much difference in skillsets and proficiency between the US, Europe and India.

That surprises me, given you say you've been working with major consultancies. I've been working with and leading international teams for almost 10 years now, mainly with teams in India. I see a huge gap between skillset and proficiency between the US, Europe and India. But I must qualify this - I've most been working with some of the large outsourcing companies in India, Capgemini, Infosys and Cognizant, and these c…

I like that you're upfront and detailed about your experiences and do not generalize. Much appreciated.

I should tell you that these big body shops have a reputation for hiring really bad programmers, basically because they have "processes" that they use to turn these people into problem solvers in very specific domains. More often than not, that is what their clients want as well: human eyes on a system designed and written by someone else. When in college, these were known as "bus" companies, because they would give job offers to a busload of students, but all the offers were pitiful and the work horrible.

Just like you noticed, if you want to see real talent, look elsewhere.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#215

Post by pathseeker »

timthelion wrote: post #5

I think that this is a good example of how racism, conscious and unconscious is making us worse at predicting the future. Ten years ago, so many Americans were making jokes about poor quality Indian code and Indian accents. The idea of Indians actually working innovative jobs seemed laughable to many Americans. But there wasn't actually strong evidence that Indians were less good at doing cutting edge research. This…

>This racism is again mirrored in the huge salary difference. Are those Indian workers really worth so much less?

Nobody anywhere in the world is paid what they are "worth". They are paid whatever is necessary to keep them at the company. In other words, as an employee the competition is other employees in the same market.

It has nothing to do with racism, that's just intellectually lazy.

>By not paying a competitive salary, those IBM offices in India are lacking the deep experience of western programmers.

Paying a higher salary doesn't suddenly make the Indian workers smarter. It just makes the job more attractive to where the stronger experience is (currently the US).

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#216

Post by whydoudodis »

godzilla82 wrote: post #113
whydoudodis wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of Bangalore and modern Indian cities are almost at par with San Francisco as far as Infrastructure goes. How do I know this? I travel to India 3 times a year for work.

Sorry you are so wrong. What do you consider infrastructure? I have lived in the bay area and in Bangalore, I have no idea how you can even compare them in terms of roads, city planning, utilities agencies, Civic agencies etc. I think the exchange rate of your country's currency allows you to stay at top tier places when you visit India, that's why you'd experience India differently than Indians.

I would agree with you if you would have compared Austin to Bangalore. But the fact is : San Francisco is in as terrible shape as Bangalore is. So moving from San Francisco to Bangalore would not lower your quality of life at all.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#217

Post by pm90 »

potlee wrote: post #197
maxxxxx wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discriminating against Russians is OK. No worries :-)

Technically this is true, sadly. Nationalities are not a protected group.

No its not. Labor laws in the US specifically state you are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of national origin.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#218

Post by pm90 »

scholia wrote: post #200
github-cat wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, you misunderstood my point. My implication is that we should spent the money on the right people. For example, if we have budget of $10000, we can spend them hiring one/two good developers instead of hiring 4/5 below average developers.

Do really good American developers actually want to work for IBM? Serious question....

Yes.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#219

Post by alunchbox »

I wonder if this might have a reason why the Phoenix Payroll system was such a disaster. Originally the estimate was for $5.7 mil but somehow it is now costing 32x more (~185 mil)[1], mind you, this is Canadians tax-payers money :(. Not to mention the ball they dropped with Queensland (beyond any software horror story I've read to date).

It must be difficult having two hugely different cultures & work ethics trying to work in synchronicity to complete this type of project. (I'm only speculating that the project was done by their India teams and not the US/Canadian teams)

[1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-ibm-contract-un...

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#220

Post by gozur88 »

pm90 wrote: post #194
gozur88 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the classic real estate bubble.

In countries of > 1 billion people who are racing towards development, the real estate bubble just goes on and on. Even in smaller cities, real estate is seen as a very profitable investment as even more people make the rural to urban transition, jacking up demand to stratospheric levels.

Bubbles always last longer than you'd think, but at some point they all end. Absent some kind of crazy government intervention, prices are ultimately supported by rent.
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