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IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

nytimes.com

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Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#181

Post by throwaway0929 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #40
timthelion wrote: post #5

I think that this is a good example of how racism, conscious and unconscious is making us worse at predicting the future. Ten years ago, so many Americans were making jokes about poor quality Indian code and Indian accents. The idea of Indians actually working innovative jobs seemed laughable to many Americans. But there wasn't actually strong evidence that Indians were less good at doing cutting edge research. This…

I'll probably get in trouble for this but from my experience even in the US majority-Indian teams prefer hiring Indians.

I guess that's because we get more Indian referrals from a team with more Indians. At least my current team is dominantly Indian because of this reason.

Also, I personally feel there is fundamental difference is how Indians interview the candidates. Indian interviewers usually try to identify the weakness of a candidate (if there is a fullstack opening and the candidate's strength is more on the backend, the interviewer leans more towards frontend to identify the weaknesses of a candidate). Non-Indian interviewers most try to find the strengths of a candidate. When I attend interviews and see a panel with Indian names, I know that those slots suck.

Of course exceptions apply for everything..just my observation being Indian working in Indian teams..

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#182

Post by GordonS »

flarg wrote: post #72
pavanky wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ten years ago, so many Americans were making jokes about poor quality Indian code and Indian accents. If you thin this is 10 years ago, you should watch some threads here and on /r/programming about people on H1b visas.

I've actually worked with and managed international teams for a number of major consultancy companies and outside of silicon valley I don't see much difference in skillsets and proficiency between the US, Europe and India.

That surprises me, given you say you've been working with major consultancies.

I've been working with and leading international teams for almost 10 years now, mainly with teams in India.

I see a huge gap between skillset and proficiency between the US, Europe and India. But I must qualify this - I've most been working with some of the large outsourcing companies in India, Capgemini, Infosys and Cognizant, and these companies are where you find unbelievably bad coders. I often literally have to interview 20+ candidates before I find anyone even half decent, and even then, the level is much less than a candidate with similar time-served from Europe or the US.

This shouldn't be surprising if you see how such companies run development projects when left to their own devices; they will staff a project with 5-10x more devs than would be used elsewhere, and everyone works on an unimaginably narrow part of the project - someone might literally do nothing but write maps for the ORM, another person might do nothing but edit config files. It's madness.

I have however had excellent experiences with Indian devs on the rare occasions where I've been permitted to use small, development-focused businesses. Excellent developers absolutely exist in India - but they are as rare as hens' teeth the big body shops.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#183

Post by timthelion »

godzilla82 wrote: post #113
whydoudodis wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of Bangalore and modern Indian cities are almost at par with San Francisco as far as Infrastructure goes. How do I know this? I travel to India 3 times a year for work.

Sorry you are so wrong. What do you consider infrastructure? I have lived in the bay area and in Bangalore, I have no idea how you can even compare them in terms of roads, city planning, utilities agencies, Civic agencies etc. I think the exchange rate of your country's currency allows you to stay at top tier places when you visit India, that's why you'd experience India differently than Indians.

Living in Prague, I visited the Bay Area recently. I've never felt more like I was in a 3rd world country. Not even when I was in the norther Czech Republic which is in REALLY bad shape. I mean, have you been to oakland? The place looks like a war zone.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#184

Post by timthelion »

majewsky wrote: post #138
kitten_mittens_ wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air quality is still a big issue too.

No problem, just walk around in a spacesuit. Technology really solves all problems! /s

In India don't the rich people just have tinted windows and air filters?

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#185

Post by timthelion »

s73ver_ wrote: post #95
timthelion wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the quality of life, while debatable, would be considered a downgrade for many who could potentially be poached from other regions". Why would it be a downgrade. If they paid an American $120k a year to live in Bangalore, that would buy the American a nice villa, pay for several servants, and allow for frequent travel. In SF, that same money gets you a shoe-box apartment.

There's no way in hell they're paying the American $120k if they're working in India. And, all the money in the world can't buy good air quality.

My point was, that they should pay westerners that kind of money to move there, in order to pull experience in. India has plenty of talent, but they don't have so much experience.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#186

Post by BeetleB »

nebula wrote: post #56
cybernytrix wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you talk about PPP, keep in mind to factor in housing and other modern lifestyle conveniences. These are very very expensive if you price it as a percentage of your salary. Even in the Bay Area, a Home is still 5-6X annual income of a typical software engineer. In India, it is more like 10-15X.

>Even in the Bay Area, a Home is still 5-6X annual income of a typical software engineer. Is this true? I am ignorant of actual prices in Bay Area, but people are always complaining of high housing prices there.

Yup.

5-6X will not get you a nice house in a nice area. It will just get you a small house. In San Jose, the cheapest ones I'm seeing are in the 500-600K range - smaller than 1000 sq ft.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#188

Post by matwood »

hesarenu wrote: post #171
matwood wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't dealt with IBM, but I have been in charge of outsourcing before. Early on we used Indians, but it became expensive so we moved on to the Philippines. Both had the issue you're describing. If you found someone good they would be gone in a few months for more money. I remember arguing with management above me because I wanted to pay a person 40k instead of 35k (I think those were the numbers, it's been awhile…

I think any competent underpaid developer would eventually move on.

Of course. The point was that outsourcing was 'supposed to be cheap'. The reality is that for many situations it is not cheap, and is less expensive in the long run to pay a dev 100k or whatever the local market rate is instead.

Re: IBM Now Has More Employees in India Than in the U.S

#189

Post by timthelion »

holydude wrote: post #17
timthelion wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an example of this racism, I'd use this comment from the article: "It often takes 2 and sometimes 3 Indian employees to perform the role of the North America diluting the savings." https://nyti.ms/2yxCQGX

I did not even want to comment but I have to. You are very xenophobic towards americans. Every developed rich nation has this attitude when it comes to outsourcing and offshoring. But all of it is just anecdotal evidence (it goes both ways).You are not only forgetting about how economics work but also evidently omitting how that happened that US is so rich and can afford paying such salaries. I really do not want to…

I am "xenophobic"? I was born in America and lived there the first 18 years of my life. I'm trying to not merely generalize, and therefore I went out of my way to cite an actual example of the attitude in question.
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