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CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

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Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#211
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about whether it is "high". When you multiply the probability of the suspect shooting you by the cost of getting shot, the cost of acting nice all the time is high. Therefore, according to the statement you yourself agreed with, that cost is "relatively much higher" in the USA.

Perhaps we disagree about what "good statistical basis" is, especially the "good" part. I don't think minuscule incremental improvements to officer safety justify assuming every encounter will escalate.

Suppose your cost for an event goes from $5,000 to $500,000. Do you think you may make different choices to try and prevent this event?

That is the difference in how many guns there are among the population.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a mindset amongst many that police should never stop, question or even talk to people without some level of suspecion of wrongdoing. They see most any checkpoint as a threat to basic libery. Such "chasers", rather than the silent watchers who dont scream at officers, are extreemists who take laws and constitutional constructions far to literally.

I don't think we should have checkpoints, ever, unless perhaps there is an imminent thread you are trying to stop, like a felon racing away in the car and you know she's there. In my state, Washington, I have never seen a police checkpoint. Somehow we have managed to survive up to this point

I'm genuinely surprised to learn that sobriety checkpoints are considered to violate 10 states constitutions, including Washington's. I wonder if this has any impact on the rate of impaired driving in these jurisdictions

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it probably looked like a gun from a distance. The police were in the neighborhood confronting somebody with a machine gun - not smart to take an action that looks like pointing a gun in a type of situation where one side has decided they need machine guns . It's not to excuse the behavior of the police..., but if you're pointing something at the police from across the street, it's hard to see the profile…

> with a machine gun Ugh. I wish reporters would stop embellishing stories like that with words they don't understand. An AR-15 is not in any sense a "machine gun".

Indeed, that's an assault rifle, predecessor to the M16. Only available as semi-automatic for civilian, if not modified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_variant

I don't know how you American call that, but I'd consider that as war equipment.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't trying to take sides. One set of people were doing their jobs, another person was doing something without thinking about consequences. I don;t hold this opinion in general, for example when someone videotapes police in a city street. Several people were pissed off about privacy violations when Google glass was becoming popular. I'm trying to apply the same principle here. Yes, ideally the guy shouldn't have…

So ... you're not bothered that in this instance, LEO demonstrably "did something without full knowledge of the situation". Seems we should be holding LEO to a significantly higher standard of having full knowledge of a situation before doing something like employing lethal force. That's what we pay them for, and it shouldn't be to much to ask them to take an extra moment of extreme caution to verify the difference b…

"without full knowledge of the situation". Seems to me that the LEO had as much information about the situation as was possible in the timeframe required to act. Someone, at night, was pointing something at them from across the street during a gun battle with someone else (to be fair that's entirely based on information from this thread so we can treat it as a hypothetical situation if you like). I think it's pretty reasonable that a phone can be easily mistaken for a handgun in those circumstances (not sure why you're suggesting the comparison to an assault rifle).

That demands an immediate assessment of threat. I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that they just needed to wait a bit longer for more/better information to arrive when their current assessment based on the information available at that moment suggested a high risk to themselves or others.

LEO often have to deal with situations where information is imperfect (poor visibility, multiple actors, etc), and make judgement calls about what's the best/safest thing to do in the circumstances. Sometimes they get it wrong, because the information wasn't accurate enough, and sometimes they get it wrong because their training was insufficient or their judgement was flawed.

Clearly if training or poor judgement (or attitude) were factors in taking the wrong action then that should be addressed (and there may be a fair point to be made that in some jurisdictions LEO and their organisations are not held accountable enough for failures there).

And sometimes they get it right, and save the lives of themselves or others because they acted immediately.

Full disclosure: I have LEO family members (Canada), so I recognise I have some obvious bias on the topic.

[edit] looks like 'at night' may not have been correct; not sure where I got that from. I don't think it changes the argument much - information at hand is often imperfect; LEO need to act in some cases regardless of imperfect information due to the level of risk involved.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#215

Interesting how the prevailing mood on HN is very much pro-cop. Kind of surprising for a hacker forum. You don't really see what a system is made of until you stress it: filming police is one way to stress the LEO system. It's an unfortunate reality that it often does not produce good results.

I wouldn't describe the prevailing mood as pro-cop. That seems reductive.

The guy in question would probably receive more sympathy if he went to one of the places in the US where police corruption and brutality is known to be a real issue.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#216
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming it's necessary to shoot at all, aiming to kill is even more rarely the right thing to do.

I'm by no means an expert gun-handler, but the only constant instruction every time I go to a range is "Don't point the gun at anything you are not ok with completely destroying". I understand police should be better trained, and ideally they must shoot to stop vs shoot to kill.

Safety on, unless you're actively practising.

Keep guns pointed toward the ground or the air when handling, don't point at things and never point at people.

Only have your hands on the trigger if you are planning to shoot. (Corollary: if someone has hands on trigger, consider that he's gonna shoot.)

P.S. That's what I've seen at European ranges, let's assume they are taking security more seriously than American ones :D

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#217
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps we disagree about what "good statistical basis" is, especially the "good" part. I don't think minuscule incremental improvements to officer safety justify assuming every encounter will escalate.

Suppose your cost for an event goes from $5,000 to $500,000. Do you think you may make different choices to try and prevent this event? That is the difference in how many guns there are among the population.

Yes, I think we both understand the comparison well enough, the disagreement is about the characterization.

My position is that police feeling nervous about guns shouldn't factor into their rules of engagement, because the statistics show that violent encounters are extremely rare. I don't want to mischaracterize your position so I'll leave you to make a comparable statement if you want.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with a machine gun Ugh. I wish reporters would stop embellishing stories like that with words they don't understand. An AR-15 is not in any sense a "machine gun".

Indeed, that's an assault rifle, predecessor to the M16. Only available as semi-automatic for civilian, if not modified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_variant I don't know how you American call that, but I'd consider that as war equipment.

I don't know how you American call that, but I'd consider that as war equipment.

The rest of your comment is informative and adds to the discussion. Your parent is making a similar point, which you expand on. This last statement you add is can be read as inflammatory. Gun discussions are contentious enough as it is, particularly on the internet, and they all to often derail into all manner of increasingly flamewar topics which are tangential to the story. Can you clarify why you added this?

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we should have checkpoints, ever, unless perhaps there is an imminent thread you are trying to stop, like a felon racing away in the car and you know she's there. In my state, Washington, I have never seen a police checkpoint. Somehow we have managed to survive up to this point

I'm genuinely surprised to learn that sobriety checkpoints are considered to violate 10 states constitutions, including Washington's. I wonder if this has any impact on the rate of impaired driving in these jurisdictions

Do you mean in the sense that "we find more impaired drivers because we look" or "we find fewer impaired drivers because of threats"? According to the top hit on Google for "washinton state dui rates" Washington is still top 10 [1]. I can't really speak to what a good source for these statistics might be, though.

[1] https://www.injurytriallawyer.com/blog/washington-state-dui-...

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#220
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why shouldn't they? Police departments and city officials across the US routinely lie, obsfucate and remove any sense of accountability for police officers who commit crimes or make mistakes. Look at the case of the murder of Laquan McDonald in Chicago. The lying and stonewalling is a common occurrence. It's not just a few bad apples, it's a bad system that promotes escalation and grants power without accountabil…

>And why shouldn't they? Because one person (cop or not, doesn't matter) breaking the law over here doesn't in any way justify unreasonable harassment of another person (cop or not) over there? Let me put it another way, how is this behavior intended to improve policing in America, and do you think it has a chance of doing so?

It improves policing because now police know that they will always be watched.

And any excessive force or mistake that they engage in will be trending on YouTube in under an hour. So you better be damn careful.

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