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CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

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Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#131

Post by jMyles »

throwaway76543 wrote: post #121
jMyles wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> actuallly chase police officers, annoyingly record their action and make sure to insult them As for the insulting part - sure, that's always a shame. But what's wrong with following bearers of state power and recording their actions? That's precisely in the spirit of the first amendment.

Insulting is likewise precisely in the spirit of the first amendment.

Well, it terms of defending-what-you-say, I won't. In terms of defending-your-right-to-say-it, I will.

However, for the recording thing:

In terms of defending-your-right-to-do-it, I will. However, in this case, defending-what-you-do, I'll do that too.

So it's a little different. Although I acknowledge someone's right to insult someone, I assert that it's not particularly good for society. However, for recording police, I both acknowledge their right to do it and assert that it's of global benefit to society.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#132

Post by pnathan »

Interesting how the prevailing mood on HN is very much pro-cop. Kind of surprising for a hacker forum.

You don't really see what a system is made of until you stress it: filming police is one way to stress the LEO system. It's an unfortunate reality that it often does not produce good results.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#133

Post by ctrl-j »

golergka wrote: post #104
bougiefever wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fair, if you're going to use deadly force, to first find out with a much, much greater degree of certainty, that there actually is a weapon, and if so that they actually are in danger. Too many cowardly and scared police shooting at shadows and noises. "It's not to excuse the behavior of the police.." And yes, your comment is excusing the behavior of the police. Just saying that you didn't just excuse th…

Taking time to raise level of certainty will, with high probability, give the other guy time to shoot you. This is one untypical case that makes the news, so you're thinking about optimizing decision making for this case; all the cases where police actually get shot don't.

> Taking time to raise level of certainty will, with high probability, give the other guy time to shoot you.

In war, soliders are required to have an extremely high degree of certainty before opening fire. I think it's pretty safe to hold a higher standard to a police force that is dealing with primarily innocent civilians.

If they don't want to risk their lives, they can find another job. That may sound unfair, but it's more unfair to kill and murder someone who poses no threat.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#134

Post by IslaDeEncanta »

stinkytaco wrote: post #124
ithought wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why shouldn't they? Police departments and city officials across the US routinely lie, obsfucate and remove any sense of accountability for police officers who commit crimes or make mistakes. Look at the case of the murder of Laquan McDonald in Chicago. The lying and stonewalling is a common occurrence. It's not just a few bad apples, it's a bad system that promotes escalation and grants power without accountabil…

I absolutely think you should be able to record the police. But following them around is potentially unsafe for everyone involved. It's also a good way to harass good people out of the profession (the worse a job is, the more you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to fill it). In addition, it absolutely can be a misdemeanor to harass people, government employee or not. No one deserves to be insulted. The problem…

How is following police unsafe for everyone involved?

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#135

Post by koolba »

stinkytaco wrote: post #124
ithought wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And why shouldn't they? Police departments and city officials across the US routinely lie, obsfucate and remove any sense of accountability for police officers who commit crimes or make mistakes. Look at the case of the murder of Laquan McDonald in Chicago. The lying and stonewalling is a common occurrence. It's not just a few bad apples, it's a bad system that promotes escalation and grants power without accountabil…

I absolutely think you should be able to record the police. But following them around is potentially unsafe for everyone involved. It's also a good way to harass good people out of the profession (the worse a job is, the more you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to fill it). In addition, it absolutely can be a misdemeanor to harass people, government employee or not. No one deserves to be insulted. The problem…

Following them around is originally what the Black Panther Party would do to keep tabs on them. But without actually interacting with them. So no insults or entering the situation unless actual police brutality or a miscarriage of justice was occurring. If they had smart phones I'm sure they'd be filming the whole thing too.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#136

Post by kordless »

ithought wrote: post #107
lohengramm wrote: post #81

Seems like the guy calls himself a "copchaser" and is used to actuallly chase police officers, annoyingly record their action and make sure to insult them while teaching them a lesson about how to do their job. And he calls all that "standing his ground". I am sure police officers can be jerks or even completely criminals, but this guy really seems to be crossing the line of common sense. Source: the YT channel himse…

And why shouldn't they? Police departments and city officials across the US routinely lie, obsfucate and remove any sense of accountability for police officers who commit crimes or make mistakes. Look at the case of the murder of Laquan McDonald in Chicago. The lying and stonewalling is a common occurrence. It's not just a few bad apples, it's a bad system that promotes escalation and grants power without accountabil…

> And why shouldn't they?

This is a leading question, which is to say it's not a question that can be answered in a rational way. If one desires removal of choice in the conversation, they may answer it irrationally.

> Look at the case of the murder of Laquan McDonald in Chicago.

The use of a separate case of an individual having choice removed, or individuals in a group removing choice for an individual, applied to the officers involved in this video (and conversation here) is illogical. Just because someone of the group "law enforcement" acts irrationally one place does not mean all will act that way everywhere else.

> Being annoying or insulting to government employees isn't a crime.

When Alex Jones presents his words as truths it is also not a crime. However, while holding the separate goal of being "controversial" and "in your face", the dissonance that is created by such actions is palatable, and akin to a crime of logic or truth. If one attempts to disrupt the arrival of a truth in a given situation, they seek to create additional work for the aggregate to determine truth.

In this case, the officer wanted to know why someone was shining a flashlight (changing colors no less) around in the general vicinity of the stop. The reply was along the lines of "no concern of yours", when in fact it WAS a concern of the officer. In essence, the individuals filming were actively removing choice from the officer to be concerned, speaking for his actions (by implying he was or was going to run plates) and in general acting in a way that would encourage the future event of confrontation. In other words, they are acting in an irrational way to cause further irrationality to occur, when none existed.

I've been kicking around a framework for detecting and describing these types of logical "arguments" which are all verbally spoken or written. In the case of comments on HackerNews, I regularly point out the dissonance in the argument, and attempt to show how these arguments can spread if the irrationality is intended to disrupt, as is done with leading questions that blame using biased arguments.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#137

Post by pjc50 »

rayiner wrote: post #75
icebraining wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excusable in a war zone, not in a policing action. Then again a man firing 100 machine gun rounds would be almost unheard of in any other developed country, so maybe the US does qualify as a war zone.

There is a bit of truth to that. England and Wales had about 10 murders per million people last year, versus 50 per million for the U.S. The cities that show up in the news, like Baltimore, are at about 500 per million people. To put that into perspective: Baltimore, a city of just 620,000 people, had a roughly comparable number of homicides as the entirety of England and Wales, a country of 56 million people.

I think last time I ran the numbers I concluded that Troubles Belfast in the 1970s (troops on the streets, authorised to use deadly force consistent with rules of engagement, versus actual armed terrorists, plus loyalist militias engaging in terrorism of their own) was still safer than 80s Detroit.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#138

Post by bmelton »

maxerickson wrote: post #127
tomschlick wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with a machine gun Ugh. I wish reporters would stop embellishing stories like that with words they don't understand. An AR-15 is not in any sense a "machine gun".

It is in a US legal sense. (The National Firearms Act doesn't analyze the tactical utility of the weapon, just whether it fires multiple rounds per trigger pull or is easily converted to do so)

> It is in a US legal sense

You'll need to cite that. It is not in any jurisdiction I'm aware of considered to be a "machine gun". "Readily converted" is a legal term that is defined by the BATFE, and AR-15s are saleable to the public expressly because they are NOT considered readily convertible to firing multiple rounds.

If they were, they would be barred from regular sale per the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act. As an AR-15 does not require a tax stamp, it is not legally considered a machine gun. Nor is it fully automatic, easily converted to fully automatic, nor capable of select fire.

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#139

Post by simonh »

ithought wrote: post #107
lohengramm wrote: post #81

Seems like the guy calls himself a "copchaser" and is used to actuallly chase police officers, annoyingly record their action and make sure to insult them while teaching them a lesson about how to do their job. And he calls all that "standing his ground". I am sure police officers can be jerks or even completely criminals, but this guy really seems to be crossing the line of common sense. Source: the YT channel himse…

And why shouldn't they? Police departments and city officials across the US routinely lie, obsfucate and remove any sense of accountability for police officers who commit crimes or make mistakes. Look at the case of the murder of Laquan McDonald in Chicago. The lying and stonewalling is a common occurrence. It's not just a few bad apples, it's a bad system that promotes escalation and grants power without accountabil…

>And why shouldn't they?

Because one person (cop or not, doesn't matter) breaking the law over here doesn't in any way justify unreasonable harassment of another person (cop or not) over there?

Let me put it another way, how is this behavior intended to improve policing in America, and do you think it has a chance of doing so?

Re: CEO of ThinkPenguin, Inc arrested for filming police

#140

Post by vertex-four »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #92
sgift wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why was he filming the police? Why would this be relevant? > What did other people do at/to/near the checkpoint? Same as above: Why would this be relevant? > Was he alone or part of a group or even a mob? Could be relevant.

> Why would this be relevant? Read other posts here about this person being a "cop chaser".

His reasons for filming the police are still irrelevant. His methods of doing so are relevant.
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