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How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

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211–220 of 249 posts

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The political landscape is very bleak. This is the most conservative state in the nation. Utah hates their environment so much, that they are working on shrinking or destroying several National Monuments (Escalante and Bears Ears). Their congressmen are loathsome Trump toads like Chaffetz (who investigated Park Service for making a folder with maps for a new monument, but refused to investigate anything about Trump…

It's interesting the situation was so bad McMullen ran and had a shot at winning the state, IIRC.

I count any third party candidate getting 20% of the vote as a good situation.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#212
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand Utah has one of the higher suicide rates in the country[1], and leads the country in use of antidepressants[2]. Despite being tongue-in-cheek I think the lesson is not so cut and dry. In my personal, anecdotal experience, a lot of the behavior in Utah is forced to keep up the image of a particular life style. 1: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6345a10.htm 2: http://articles.latimes.com/2…

Statistics about Utah must always be taken with a grain of salt, even larger than is typically appropriate for gross/large-scale generalizations. People know that Utah stats are seen as a proxy for the success and/or failure of Mormonism and will distort findings to accommodate their agenda. A quick example of this is that after Prop 8 passed in CA, a "study", using data sourced from a single, unnamed "top 10 pay sit…

I've had so many jack-mormon friends over the last 20 years. We'd drink beer and whiskey, and smoke a joint. Anti-depressants are straight-up drugs. It's like removing the fructose from fruit and leaving the fiber. The mormons I've known that were still devout wouldn't even consume caffeine.

Edit: Over the last 30 years my 3 best ski days were at Solitude, Snowbird, and Alta. I just wish you all had more realistic laws for beer and weed.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#213
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind,…

I think claiming that the LDS church hasn't been hostile toward LGBT people is pretty disingenuous, much like claiming they haven't been historically explicitly racist towards black people. One doesn't have to much more than a google search for "Lds gay quotes" to find a long history of negative teachings from church leaders about gay people. The church recently expended a ton of time and effort to attempt to block g…

The issue is that "hostility toward" is interpreted differently.

I want to be clear that I am not pretending, and do not intend to pretend, that the Church condones homosexual behavior. Nor do I intend to pretend that the Church ever will condone homosexual behavior, because I think they're doctrinally forbidden from doing so (whereas there was no explicit doctrinal barrier re: priesthood eligibility or plural marriage).

The difference is that Mormons do not consider themselves more hostile toward homosexual behavior than they consider themselves hostile toward other types of sinful behavior, and as detailed above, the leadership goes to lengths to try to ensure that everyone understands that those who practice homosexuality should be treated with the same civility and respect to which anyone else is entitled.

Pro-gay activists, however, interpret "hostility" to mean any disagreement whatsoever with their activities and demands, up to and including disagreement with the demand that these activities enjoy state sponsorship via marital benefits.

We have to accept that there is a basic moral disagreement here. No one is trying to hide that or say it doesn't exist, or imply that it is going to disappear.

The difference is that Mormons are trying to maintain friendly and civil relations despite that, and trying to encourage people to be sympathetic to the homosexual POV without abandoning their moral standards. Meanwhile, the activists on the other side do everything in their power to lay the blame for suicide, death, and many other massive social malignancies on religion, history, culture, politics, and anything else that disagrees with them.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The y in that is the supernatural stuff - the story. I wouldn't go to see a movie if it didn't have a good story. I wouldn't go if it was just a list of facts. But that's what the dull modern atheists types want me to do in life.

Funnily, my intent was to show that y was the dull stuff. Maybe another addition would be "I believe God wants me to do x because y, in the context of s, therefore I do x because y and/or z"? For example, take a thing Mormons are commonly known for—not drinking alcohol. It came about in what we call the 'word of wisdom' [1] [2]. s := The story part would be "In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist…

I read the linked religious texts and the story doesn't seem compelling enough for me to stop drinking the Leffe at my elbow. The fictional story has to to good enough to resonate as a truth. Aesop had the right idea.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#215

A few observations as a resident of Utah for the past 6 years (1) Fantastic for outdoor activities: skiing, mountain biking, hiking, camping. Has some of the most popular national parks in the United States (Arches, Bryce Canyon, Zion). 2/3 of the state is federally preserved. (2) Software industry is huge. Both historically (Novell, WordPerfect) and nowadays. If I had to find a SE job right now, it would take a week…

I live within an hour of the Utah border and there is great outdoor opportunity. Unfortunately, it's easier to have four wives than smoke a plant.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#216
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do we draw the line? Beliefs that cause an increase in death by suicide probably need to be looked at to see if they're really that important.

The myth that an external force can drive otherwise-sane people to suicide merely by disapproving of some of their behaviors needs to go. It is, ironically, perpetuated to shame and humiliate political opponents, by insidiously attempting to saddle them with responsibility for the deaths of the depressed and mentally ill. Healthy people do not commit suicide, and they certainly don't over issues as ethereal and incon…

> The myth that an external force can drive otherwise-sane people to suicide merely by disapproving of some of their behaviors needs to go.

It's not a myth.

It's reasonably well established now that LGBT youth are at increased risk of suicide, and that the rates of death in LGBT youth are higher in areas that have lower acceptance of LGBT youth.

The rest of your post is full of inaccuracies about suicide. You need to read some more modern research. Here's a good place to start: http://research.bmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs

BTW: That "committed" word? That's a big signal.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as churches go, the Mormon church does not have "notorious hostility" toward LGBT persons, and does everything it can to give hope to youth who feel they may be part of that group. It is true that Mormons maintain a doctrine that forbids homosexual behavior. Other than giving that up, they've done everything they can to be welcoming and accepting of gay people, regularly encouraging members to be civil, kind,…

Well, maybe things are in the process of changing, but gay Mormons will not feel completely comfortable until the doctrine forbidding homosexual behavior is consigned to the dustbin of history. You can't say that the behavior is forbidden without having some residue of the belief that homosexuality is inherently sinful, and that residue has impact on people no matter how much you paper over it by trying to be "warm a…

The idea that desires and attractions must be acted on is an incredibly immature position, sexual or not. Determining if, when, how much, and in what way you should act on your appetites, attractions, or desires is part of what being a mature adult is about. You also seem to be suggesting that disordered attractions can't exist, as if they are infallible, unquestionable, even divine in origin, or that you've somehow given same-sex attraction dispensation that does not extend to other attractions regarded as disordered. People do distinguish between same-sex attraction and the gay lifestyle and there are plenty of people who have the former but do not live out the latter because they believe that pleasure, consent, and social approval do not determine whether something is morally good or not (note that this is not an intrinsically religious question, but one belonging to ethics).

It is unfortunate that subjects such as these cannot be discussed in a dispassionate and reasonable manner and that arguing or holding that the gay lifestyle is morally wrong is somehow an act of hatred or bigotry. If youths with same-sex attraction are indeed committing suicide at high rates in Utah, it makes sense to find out why and address that. It does not follow that they are committing suicide because the Mormon church holds the gay lifestyle as wrong and that therefore the church must change its position. If the moral (again, not religious) principles are true, then they aren't the problem.

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#219

I can't see how 20% is a 'perfectly just world'. It is not a perfectly just - it is a perfectly random world. If it was 20%, it means that person from every family (wrt. parent's incomes) has equal chance to end up rich or poor, meaning that there is nothing that parents could do to help their child. It means nothing but a totalitarian, concentration camp society, because even if education, healthcare etc. are perfec…

You could have equal chance to end up in the top quintile when measuring income, and still do things to help your kids succeed. It would just mean that those things wouldn't depend on the family income. E.g. people whose family is more educated than the average would have better chances to end up in the top quintile by income, regardless of how much money they make.

What's the point of being more educated if you don't make more? Fancy way to waste time?

Re: How Utah Keeps the American Dream Alive

#220
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why that's a more logical conclusion than "I believe God wants me to do x therefore I do x"

Lot's of religions have the "I believe God wants me to do x" component without their followers then actually doing X. Non of the Catholics I know, for example, are particularly catholic or overly christian in their day to day behaviour, while all the Mormons I know try very hard to be, well, Mormon.

I'd guess that one of the differences comes in what we believe; specifically, Mormons believe that God still commands us and communicates with us today through chosen leaders - the Prophet and Twelve Apostles. We hear from them once every six months in what we call General Conference (curiously enough it concluded a couple hours ago). So they can add a level of recency and organization to commandments that might otherwise be more vague and ambiguous - e.g. "God wants each member to not eat one meal a week and donate that money to the poor" is a somewhat of a commandment for Mormons, and extends from God. Announcing that five new temples are to be built came from the Apostles today. For Catholics I don't believe most exact/actionable things are quite as direct.
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