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Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

arstechnica.com

211–220 of 344 posts

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#211
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The semantic meaning of the signatures IS the API. The whole forms the interface. This includes bugs, weird behaviour, shortcomings.

Right! That's why I believe that Google's claim that it was 'just the method signatures' doesn't really hold up since they took not just the statement of the interface, but what each part does and how they interact. The only part Google didn't take was the source describing how to do it.

> but what each part does and how they interact

That's not copyrightable, though. Maybe patentable, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#212
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for startups, on the enterprise space I am yet to see any customer move away from Oracle, SQL Server, DB2 and similar.

SAP have their own tech in HANNA now of course Edit: SAP have a DB called HANA, not HANNA as I incorrectly typed

Probably developed by the Sybase team after they bought Sybase years ago.

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#213
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

once code goes through the Android build pipeline to produce an Android Application it cannot be meaningfully used in the context of Oracle Java Android apps typically have an MVC-like structure where the UI uses Android-specific APIs, but the model is straight Java. As an example, I created an Android game and later decided that I wanted to make a level editor as a desktop Java application. I was able to reuse the m…

Right: and if you remember, the entire concept of a "platform-specific Java API" is what was at stake when Microsoft lost this very similar lawsuit when Sun sued them over J++. Either what Google is doing is horrible or what Microsoft did shouldn't have been a problem :/.

> Either what Google is doing is horrible or what Microsoft did shouldn't have been a problem

Maybe go reread about the case? It was basically breach of contract and thus quite different.

The basis of Sun's lawsuit was that Microsoft had a license to implement Java™ and part of that license was the requirement that their version would be compatible as defined by the compatibility test suite.

In their attempt to "kill cross-platform Java" they failed to be compatible and so Sun sued and won.

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#214
post #192
post #100

Oracle is set to repeat the trajectory of SCO. Their primary product (the Oracle DB engine) is being displaced by the NoSQL and things like Postgres. The "next generation" of developers equals SQL engines with "old and bad", and when forced, it ends up with Postgres anyway. Oracle used to survive in significant part by the support of the "database administrators" class. This layer of support is also becoming thinner…

The problem is the following: problems that Oracle products are solving are very hard. On other hand, our SV startup culture is all about making some quick websites and get rich schemes. So the conclusion is: Oracle is here to stay.

Yeah I honestly don't see oracle going away anytime soon

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but the availability of OpenJDK (which, after all, Google have now switched to) weakens Oracle's argument on the "Effect on the market" factor.

But OpenJDK is GPL. If Google licensed their Android Java as GPL, I guess they'd be OK. However, Google's Java is NOT GPL.

If the "structure, sequence, and organization" of APIs is a copyrightable work in its own right, then couldn't Google make a GPL-licensed derivative SSO (Android's API) but put their implementation under a separate license? Has anyone done a legal analysis of how the GPL's copyleft provisions would apply to this new kind of copyrighted work?

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#216

Oracle is such a shit company. There are still some great hackers there but Larry Ellison is an asshole, and I don't envy anyone who has to work for him even indirectly. "Left Oracle's Java business in tatters" eh? Where was their mobile OS? Their Dalvik? The wounds to Java have all been self-inflicted. If they succeed in copyrighting the API then where does this leave OpenJDK? Operating at the mercy of Larry fucking…

>Or even to C# since apparently MS got the memo on Open Source Actually Microsoft was with Oracle on the whole 'API's should be copyrightable' and lobbied on their behalf during the case. Microsoft claimed that: "If Google's position that APIs can't be copyrighted stands, it will "destabilize" the entire software industry" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/microsoft-forese...

They mean "destablilize" as in "the fat pigs at the top will lose power", which is incidentally what everyone else wants.

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#217

Oracle is such a shit company. There are still some great hackers there but Larry Ellison is an asshole, and I don't envy anyone who has to work for him even indirectly. "Left Oracle's Java business in tatters" eh? Where was their mobile OS? Their Dalvik? The wounds to Java have all been self-inflicted. If they succeed in copyrighting the API then where does this leave OpenJDK? Operating at the mercy of Larry fucking…

>Or even to C# since apparently MS got the memo on Open Source Actually Microsoft was with Oracle on the whole 'API's should be copyrightable' and lobbied on their behalf during the case. Microsoft claimed that: "If Google's position that APIs can't be copyrighted stands, it will "destabilize" the entire software industry" https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/microsoft-forese...

It's more subtle than that. The way United States copyright law is structured is that it tends to have simple, broad rules for what is subject to copyright, and then has several exceptions that limit the copyright owner's exclusive rights.

The tendency is to put the complexity and special cases in those exceptions and to keep the basic rules for what is subject to copyright simple.

Under current law and current Supreme Court precedent, for written works (including computer programs) that standard is essentially that if it is original and it has some creativity it is subject to copyright. The level of required creativity is very low. I believe the Supreme Court used the phrase "modicum of creativity" or something similar.

Microsoft's argument was that APIs can qualify under these simple, broad rules as interpreted by current precedent, and so the district court went too far in saying that APIs cannot be subject to copyright.

They did not argue that this means that Oracle should be able to prevent Google's copying. They believed that one or more of the exceptions (fair use, the merger doctrine, and some others they mention in their brief) could apply.

Their argument on destabilizing the software industry didn't have anything to do with APIs specifically. Essentially it was that the reasons the district court used to exclude the APIs from being copyrightable would likely apply to much more, calling in question a large part of the idea of copyright for computer programs. That would undermine pretty much all software licensing, both proprietary and open source.

It's worth reading their brief, as I've done some summarizing and simplifying that probably distorts some of the arguments. The Ars article you cited links to it.

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growth rate is a nonsense metric. If you're starting from nothing and invest a shitload of money in sales you'll have an amazing growth rate. IBM and Oracle are both way behind azure, google and aws.

I have a friend who works at IBM he tells me that IBM uses Google cloud for some of their stuff. The irony when you are a cloud provider but use another service.

I mean, that in and of itself ain't really ironic. Lots of cloud providers out there just resell abstractions around / improvements upon other cloud providers. Cloud66 is one with which I'm familiar; their whole business model revolves around wrapping AWS with CloudFoundry-like deployment mechanisms specifically for Ruby codebases (and Docker containers, but I never interacted with them in that capacity).

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#219
post #4

The entire software industry should be boycotting Oracle over this case. If they win it will ruin software development in the US.

Except that Oracle has become so successful because they've captured the largest customer(s) of all: the US federal government.

Well isn't that a coincidence. Extracting money through state granted limited monopoly rights and lobbying for big government contracts at the same time. Oracle is really living the crony capitalist dream.

Re: Oracle refuses to accept pro-Google “fair use” verdict in API battle

#220
post #88
post #39

How does OpenJDK stay out of violation if Oracle wins? Doesn't OpenJDK basically copy the API as well?

Code for OpenJDK can run unmodified on Oracle Java. Code for Android Apps contain unrelated public APIs so cannot run on Oracle Java.

What does copyright law care about software compatibility?
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