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Computer Science Education

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Re: Computer Science Education

#211
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people "do just fine in their lives" without knowing how to read. This is discussing how to "be an educated citizen", a far higher bar. An educated citizen: * can have an informed opinion about the NSA's definition of "collecting" information [0]. * when told "we need to make sure that this list of 100,000 URLs are all valid websites", doesn't respond "wow, we'll need to hire a big team". * can reason about…

I disagree. That is like saying that an educated citizen must: * have an informed opinion on current Emission standards * be able to change oil on their own car * could describe how a 4-stroke engine works Replace the computer with a car and you will see that what you consider basic knowledge is not basic to most people. They rely on experts for advice, opinion, and guidance.

People often forget, but educating the masses is a challenge that was discussed in length by the Founding Fathers of America as being a cornerstone of a successful democracy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Federalist_Papers

Education of the masses was believed to be instrumental to avoiding tyranny of the majority which was a very real concern (especially since so many Founding Fathers came to America escaping religious prosecution as the minority faith). It's my personal belief that the difficulty in achieving "sufficient" widespread education ultimately shaped the decision to model America's self-governance after a Republic with non-elected checks and balances (included non-elected ones e.g. Judicial) rather than a more direct/representative democracy.

The pseudo-perversion of the Electoral College leading to highly correlated Executive Branch elections with the popular vote I think undermines this system and heightens the education requirement of the average citizen.

Also, on a side note, the lack of perfect information has significant effects on Economic systems leading to market externalities.

Re: Computer Science Education

#212

I graduated with a CS degree in 2004 from Carnegie Mellon University and Google didn't give a shit about me until 2011 where they told me they would only hire me if I were working for another local company first. The other local companies didn't want to hire me, because they thought I would just go work for Google. Never met anyone at Google who cared that I was a good programmer or had devoted my life to it. They se…

Just saying this because on the off chance it might help you, but I think likely the reason that Google has some reservations about you is because of your attitude. Bringing in race and gender out of nowhere does not signal good things.

Re: Computer Science Education

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever been somewhere where it was clear everyone noticed you didn't 'fit in'? There are multiple ways to answer the question: 1. I often don't fit in - and don't consider this as a problem. 2. I have yet to see a woman studying a STEM subject who is very skilled at it and made such complaint. 3. Saying one does not study, say, computer science because one does not fit in means that "fitting in" is more impo…

> I have yet to see a woman studying a STEM subject who is very skilled at it and made such complaint. Seriously, you should actually talk to some of these women about their experiences.

> > I have yet to see a woman studying a STEM subject who is very skilled at it and made such complaint.

> Seriously, you should actually talk to some of these women about their experiences.

I have.

Re: Computer Science Education

#214

I graduated with a CS degree in 2004 from Carnegie Mellon University and Google didn't give a shit about me until 2011 where they told me they would only hire me if I were working for another local company first. The other local companies didn't want to hire me, because they thought I would just go work for Google. Never met anyone at Google who cared that I was a good programmer or had devoted my life to it. They se…

I think what you are up against is that Google being Google, they can afford to commit a large number of Type 1 errors in hiring engineers (rejecting good engineers) and still remain the top company. It's nothing personal.

Re: Computer Science Education

#215
post #93
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got into a discussion about this recently. It seems like most of the time new technology and automation inherently creates less jobs than it depreciates. Meanwhile, the population only goes up. Assuming those two statements are true in a given economy, then this is going to become a major problem for society as the number of people drastically outmatches the number of (skilled?) jobs that need performed. At a certa…

> I got into a discussion about this recently. It seems like most of the time new technology and automation inherently creates less jobs than it depreciates. > Meanwhile, the population only goes up. That's why one should consider people who produce children as "evil-minded". There are few things that are similar as cruel as producing children who will have no place in society. Antinatalism for the win.

> Antinatalism for the win.

Although I couldn't disagree more with your philosophy, I strongly encourage you to continue pursuing it in your personal life.

In the name of mankind: thank you for not having children.

Re: Computer Science Education

#216
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people "do just fine in their lives" without knowing how to read. This is discussing how to "be an educated citizen", a far higher bar. An educated citizen: * can have an informed opinion about the NSA's definition of "collecting" information [0]. * when told "we need to make sure that this list of 100,000 URLs are all valid websites", doesn't respond "wow, we'll need to hire a big team". * can reason about…

I disagree. That is like saying that an educated citizen must: * have an informed opinion on current Emission standards * be able to change oil on their own car * could describe how a 4-stroke engine works Replace the computer with a car and you will see that what you consider basic knowledge is not basic to most people. They rely on experts for advice, opinion, and guidance.

An interesting distinction here: jkaptur says that an educated citizen "can", which I interpret as meaning that such a citizen possesses the ability to do or figure out how to do the thing, independently of whether they currently know it. This is different than your "must", which takes it a step further and defines things everyone should know.

I think an educated citizen should know how to, if they so desired, have an informed opinion on anything, whether it's current emission standards or the NSA's definition of collecting information. That citizen should be able to research and learn how to change the oil on their car, or to learn how a 4-stroke engine works.

Re: Computer Science Education

#217
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And here is the problem - diversity has become a goal rather than a natural consequence of everyone having equal chances. And here is the problem - people think diversity is a goal per se, while it is actually a competitive advantage.

It's a wrong assumption that diversity of demographics is the same as diversity of thought. It's also wrong to assume that a lack of diversity in demographics automatically equates to a lack of diversity in thought. A competitive advantage would be gained through diversity of thought. Making gender, skin color or any other superficial characteristic into a numbers game in order to look diverse is in no way a competit…

> It's a wrong assumption that diversity of demographics is the same as diversity of thought. It's also wrong to assume that a lack of diversity in demographics automatically equates to a lack of diversity in thought. > A competitive advantage would be gained through diversity of thought. Making gender, skin color or any other superficial characteristic into a numbers game in order to look diverse is in no way a competitive advantage.

Well, not really. I mean, not at all. I appreciate you took your time to tell me I'm wrong, but you might want to support it with something more solid. Diversity of thought is not just what happens when you get two people together. If those people have a very similar upbringing, chances are they think in a similar way. They might reach different conclusions and one of them might reach the right one, but they might be missing points of view that could increase their accuracy when making decisions.

Your upbringing shapes how you think, what you fear, what you wish. Of course even inside the same communities very similar people might have completely different trains of thought, but what you call "superficial characteristics" as gender or skin colour it is (unfortunately) not superficial in many places. Many men can't even imagine the things a woman has to endure at the workplace, or your skin colour when you're a minority.

Even things like being a native speaker of a foreign tongue shapes how you think. The culture of your hometown, province, region, country defines you, too.

If you've lived a different life because of your gender, ethnicity, passport, disability, country of birth or even family wealth chances are you can bring quite different points of view than people with different gender, ethnicity, passport, disability, country of birth or even family wealth.

There are studies that show correlation between higher diversity and better performance (Forbes, McKinsey).

P.S.: I suspect you're the one that downvoted me (just above 500 karma, only reply to my comment). I appreciate you followed up with a comment, but downvotes are not "I disagree" signals. Please learn to be a bit more tolerant with people that does not think like you, instead of trying to shut their voice down.

Re: Computer Science Education

#218

> Computers are everywhere in our world today and being an educated citizen requires an understanding of the fundamentals of computer science and its underlying problem-solving methodology of computational thinking. I know this is just some copywriter writing this, but this seems the height of Silicon Valley bubble thinking. Plenty of people do just fine in their lives barely interacting with computers at all. Sure,…

Almost the whole population of earth is affected by computers on a daily basis. Seems logical for the citizens to know the fundamentals irrespective of the domain they are in. Because almost all the domains will be soon run through computers.

But we live in a tech bubble. The fact that we lurk and post on HN is the proof of it. Of course knowing computers makes sense to us as a requirement to be an educated citizen of the world.

Take a step back.

All of the following are vital to our modern lives yet most people will only be able to check 2 or 3 of them.

- cars mechanics

- electronics / electricity

- radio / telecommunications

- computers

- plumbing

- hunting

- agriculture

- food processing

- medicine & first aid

- philosophy

- music

- cinematography

etc.

You will have advanced knowledge of very few of those. The rest you will barely interact with. Barely interacting with computers in the reality of a lot of people.

Re: Computer Science Education

#219
It's quite interesting how manipulative and abusive this whole conversation about CS education, employment, and immigration is. The core driver and source of America's problems in this field go back many years. If immigration were not a lucrative opportunity for companies to exploit with manipulations about how there is just not enough American talent and they had actually supported and pushed for quality education back in the 70s and 80s even, the education system would have been reformed and retuned to support the new digital economy and opened opportunities to the working and black communities of America.

At the core of the CS and immigration issue is the fact that corporations, especially Google, MS, etc. back then, manipulated the government and policies and sold out society and America in order to make quick profits by devising those destructive H1B visas and outsourcing their development to foreign countries in order to convert wage and salary deltas into short term profits. We act as though the tech industry/sector is some magnanimous and benevolent force, when in reality they have been corroding society and avoiding their responsibly for decades now to the point where even the CEOs are now foreign nationals with all the interests one would expect of foreign national that are not American.

When the CEOs object to the travel ban that doesn't even affect them, or the restrictions on H1B, and the risk of being held to account for selling out the USA by outsourcing their costs to foreign nations while basking in the benefits the USA bestows upon them, they are not interested in the USA or its people, the society that made their very corporation's existence and human advancement through the technology that was developed possible. It is the purest definition of exploitation and abuse. The duplicitous, abusive, and ulterior agendas and motivations that drive these companies, especially since so much good will and magnanimity is ascribed to them.

Re: Computer Science Education

#220

I graduated with a CS degree in 2004 from Carnegie Mellon University and Google didn't give a shit about me until 2011 where they told me they would only hire me if I were working for another local company first. The other local companies didn't want to hire me, because they thought I would just go work for Google. Never met anyone at Google who cared that I was a good programmer or had devoted my life to it. They se…

Being the "right" gender (assume you mean female?) with a solid Computer Science degree wasn't enough to get my foot in the door to talk to anyone there either. They're picky, elitist, and unless someone already there recommends you they won't even talk to you.

At least that was the case before I got Amazon on my resume. Now it feels like every company on the planet wants to recruit me, including Google. I know a lot of people at Amazon who didn't have connections and didn't have a degree from an elite school (or a degree in CS at all in some cases) and they were still great. I'm sure google would never give them the time of day.

The one person I do know who works at Google is awful to be around (he is the "wrong" gender and race btw and went to the same school as me, but got referred). Google is all he talks about. I invited him to a party once and he actually started working on his laptop mid-party and snapped at me when I came over and asked him what he was up to ("It's confidential!" he said as he closed the screen and left).

So feeling rejected sucks, but maybe you dodged a bullet there.

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