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When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

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Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#211
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, having this selective breed of capitalism has allowed its leadership to sidestep aspects of American capitalism e.g. influence of corporations on leaders This is not a surprise if you understand China's political culture and its long, long history. For literally thousands of years, political elites in China have understood that political power follows economic power, which is why the richest in China are g…

> which is why the richest in China are generally Party members and high officials. Wouldn't that be the case with pretty much any totalitarian regime? > American politicians and citizens allowing corporate interests to slowly take over the political process is due to not understanding how history works. I'll take the flawed lobbying system over the Chinese system any day.

> Wouldn't that be the case with pretty much any totalitarian regime?

No. There are plenty of totalitarian regimes where any actual wealth held outside of a tiny ruling clique is considered unacceptable.

China's trick is that they 1) embraced de facto capitalism and 2) managed to spread the wealth amongst a relatively large Party base (as a % of the population) while still maintaining insider control. That's a very, very fine balancing act, and most authoritarian regimes can't manage to do it, leading to either failure to sustain economic growth (e.g. Russia, or North Korea) or complete loss of control to new economic elites.

In fact, Xi's anti-corruption campaign may potentially destabilize the Party because it breaks the implicit contract that has kept the Party together for the last 3 decades (namely, support the Party, and we'll look at the other way on corruption).

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#212
post #28
post #7

The West and China are playing a global chess game and have been for some time. An impoverished China was not in the West's interests and so they agreed to buy all kinds of lowish tech Chinese made goods. In return most jurisdictions enforced a balance of trade with China, with the exception of the US. On their end China insisted on joint ventures and technology transfer to the extent Western companies would comply.…

It seems to me that China outplayed the West here by a wide margin. For some reason, the West has let China get away with extremely protectionist trade policies the likes of which no one else in the world would dare even attempt. I think this was a combination of fear that isolating China vs creating a high degree of economic interdependence could lead to war down the line, and a lack of control over Western companie…

> For some reason, the West has let China get away with extremely protectionist trade policies the likes of which no one else in the world would dare even attempt

The reason might be deindustrialization of the west coupled by an exploding globsl consumer goods market and large (and growing) home market. China effectively made itself the factory of the west, and a highly desirable market as well.

The TPP is an attempt to deal with China because the west can't directly confront China with a tit-for-tat strategy for practical purposes: Western countries would need to rebuild and retool consume-goods factories at a high cost that the profit-maximizing corps don't want to shoulder

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time that the US was developing, it also had extremely low standards for human rights. But as the US prospered, the Civil Rights movement kicked in. So perhaps the same will happen in China.

That isn't true at all. The US had extremely high standards for human rights, just much lower standards for slaves, but the framework and standards already existed for post civil war and the civil rights movement. As far as human rights go, China is somewhere before the Magna Carta in western civilization.

>The US had extremely high standards for human rights, just much lower standards for slaves

Were slaves not human back then? GP is right: the human rights standard was appalling, and this is before considering the Trail of Tears and other small-pox-related incidents

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#214
post #169
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that China outplayed the West here by a wide margin. For some reason, the West has let China get away with extremely protectionist trade policies the likes of which no one else in the world would dare even attempt. I think this was a combination of fear that isolating China vs creating a high degree of economic interdependence could lead to war down the line, and a lack of control over Western companie…

China exchanged trillions of goods at below market rates due to games with their exchange rate. This worked because the government does not care about it's populace and can extract a lot of value from an oppressed population. The populace benefited from increasing purchasing power though far less and far slower than most developing nations. I would say the US and communist party members got a great deal and the Chine…

Not sure why you are downvoted, this is pretty much spot on. The artificially low renminbi has been driving Chinese exports since the 90s and will probably continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Meanwhile the Chinese people got rapid industrialization at the cost of by and large living in polluted filth and crowded cities, and their per-capita GDP, which is a fairly good measure of the wealth of the median citizen, is still middling-to-terrible despite their high overall GDP.

This has been a great deal for the western citizen, who have been exchanging tons of currency for cheap goods(thanks to the low exchange rate), especially US citizens who have had their government's borrowing costs financed by the very money sent over there to buy things with. Not so great of a deal for the average Chinese, in comparison to what they might have had as a more westernized country.

Edit: Let's not even talk about the demographic collapse happening as a result of the one child policy. It will make any demographic problems in the west look like child's play.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't true at all. The US had extremely high standards for human rights, just much lower standards for slaves, but the framework and standards already existed for post civil war and the civil rights movement. As far as human rights go, China is somewhere before the Magna Carta in western civilization.

>The US had extremely high standards for human rights, just much lower standards for slaves Were slaves not human back then? GP is right: the human rights standard was appalling, and this is before considering the Trail of Tears and other small-pox-related incidents

High standard human rights existed in the west, they just weren't equally applied. In China, human rights are equally applied, just at a very low standard.

So the west only had to apply what human rights already existed universally to "develop," and there was already moral pressure to do so from unfairness. China already has "fairness", but no where to go after that; there is definitely no moral pressure from within to do better.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#216
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment sounds like it's coming from ten years ago or something. China may (or may not, for all I know) have beaten the West in the game of getting the technology it wants but the country has enough structural problems that it's chances of getting ahead of the West broadly are looking very dim. Problems: Horrific pollution, huge loans to inefficient state-run industries, massive real state and infrastructure mal…

> Horrific pollution Like how the US had horrible pollution during and after the industrial revolution and never got anywhere? China's going to get their Clean Air Act. Just give it some time.

I'm more concerned about soil pollution and sinking water tables in the most fertile regions. Air could be cleaned up in a week, but this can't.

Improper irrigation can even lead to salts rising up to the soil surface and making it permanently infertile barring major earth works. Falling water tables can allow the ground to compress (now-empty pores deflate) and significantly lower the ground's ability to carry groundwater (as has happened in California).

Some damage is permanent, and we were not capable of the worst back then.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#217
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is repressive and has very low standards for human rights. If China becomes more powerful they may decide to conquer the US properly. This may be along way off but this is the fear that's behind not wanting China to surpass the US economically.

Chinese civilization is different from western civilization, specially in its habit to absorb other culture, instead of conquering them. China had a Mongol dynasty, a Manchu dynasty. But it never rode to the other side of the world to force remote populations to change their religion or political system.

Neither had Japan.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#218
post #7

The West and China are playing a global chess game and have been for some time. An impoverished China was not in the West's interests and so they agreed to buy all kinds of lowish tech Chinese made goods. In return most jurisdictions enforced a balance of trade with China, with the exception of the US. On their end China insisted on joint ventures and technology transfer to the extent Western companies would comply.…

I am always amused how people disregard the largest transfer of wealth that has ever occurred. China is responsible for the theft of trillions of US tax payers dollars through their incessant hacking and stealing of technology. From the US Military to private companies, there is no limit to their State Sponsored theft.

I'm not even going to include what the have stolen from Europe.

We can talk about barrier to entry but the real problem lies in unabated theft.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US had extremely high standards for human rights, just much lower standards for slaves Were slaves not human back then? GP is right: the human rights standard was appalling, and this is before considering the Trail of Tears and other small-pox-related incidents

High standard human rights existed in the west, they just weren't equally applied. In China, human rights are equally applied, just at a very low standard. So the west only had to apply what human rights already existed universally to "develop," and there was already moral pressure to do so from unfairness. China already has "fairness", but no where to go after that; there is definitely no moral pressure from within…

I'm not certain that there were (to a modern eye) a high standard of human rights for anyone. Treatment of slaves and the lack of women's rights are well known examples, but there are a large number of historical practices that paint a pretty inhumane society, including punishments (e.g. the stocks), amusements (e.g. gouging aka rough and tumble), and community standards for the treatment of children (`beat the devil out of them` was serious, and not at all metaphorical).

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a problem if China develops a higher GDP than the US. Its not a problem for the people. It might be a problem to politicians that want to tell a story, but wishing china to do worse economically is truly backwards. If china comes out with better technology than the us, better products and services, cheaper and all that, the whole world gets better. If you dont believe that, then you must for the sake of con…

China is repressive and has very low standards for human rights. If China becomes more powerful they may decide to conquer the US properly. This may be along way off but this is the fear that's behind not wanting China to surpass the US economically.

> If China becomes more powerful they may decide to conquer the US properly.

That's utterly hilarious. If there's a world in which that's even remotely possible, we'll all be long, long dead by the time it happens.

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