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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#211

Post by lsllc »

mackal wrote: post #13
dudul wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got downvoted probably mostly for the form of your comment, but you're not wrong IMO. I wish MA would look into banning over-the-top non competes, and revisit the default IP regulation.

They are also wrong since MA still has one of the tech centers in the US... I do agree that banning non-competes would be good.

The Boston area is currently experiencing the largest brain-drain of tech workers in the US:

https://www.boston.com/jobs/jobs-news/2016/07/11/boston-home...

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#212

Post by uremog »

adamio wrote: post #109
qaid wrote: post #39

I got bit by this at my current job. I didn't remember telling them my salary at my previous company (usually I decline to answer), but my manager brought it up when I was trying to negotiate an extra 5k. It's unfortunate that I must've told them my base salary when applying online and that I didn't do a proper negotiation afterwards. My new company doesn't give out stocks of any kind, so overall I'm making less.

I've run into quite a few applications that won't let you continue past the salary history without entering something. Its definitely a dark pattern for job applications

Might be able to get away with an improper input though. 0? 0000000? 999999999999? N/A?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#213

Post by Retric »

clem wrote: post #173
Retric wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes the opportunity's to generate 1.5m in value are finite and all developers are equivalent. Both are rather sketchy assumptions. I might have a 1% chance of preforming an amputation successfully. But, the people with an 90% chancing of doing the same are worth vastly more. Out of 100 developers 10 might save you 1.5million and getting the correct 2 might save you 3 million.

But what the patient really needed was an appendectomy.

Not sure your point. A heart surgeon has much better odds of doing an appendectomy than I do. Further, while doctor and programmer can do a range of things a specialist is a much smaller pool.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#214

Post by bjornsing »

jazzyk wrote: post #156
cheald wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that you can tolerate the commensurate risk, absolutely. Many people forget that the rank-and-file employee isn't exposed to the financial and legal risk that their employers were/are.

But they are exposed! In case of financial trouble (very common at startups), who gets to be laid off first, the CEO or the developer? Also, rank-and-file employees are typically scape-goated in legal proceedings, example: finance people going to jail for rogue/insider trading, even though upper management at least encouraged such behavior.

I hate to say this, but if you think getting laid off is a huge financial risk then you probably have not done much business. There are exceptions of course, but most founders I know carry huge financial risks (like years and years of salary on the down side, and tens of times that on the upside...).

If you haven't tried you probably can't imagine how stressful it can be at times...

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#215

Post by nucleardog »

stormbrew wrote: post #53
dudul wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a good engineer will have a say in what to build, not only how to build it. Otherwise all dev work could just be outsourced. IMO, the role of a good engineer is to deeply understand the business/domain to provide good insight in regards to what to build.

I think that everyone believes part of their job should include deciding both what they do and how they do it. I think it's pretty rare for non-managers in any field to have the latter, and extremely rare for any non-managers to have the former. I'm not sure why you believe engineers would be uniquely entitled to make decisions about what they're building. Even in a classical engineering job (building a bridge) they…

I think the distinction between "what" and "how" is a matter of perspective. The "what" is definitely the domain of management (even if decisions are made with engineering input), but where the "what" ends and becomes "how" is fluid.

To use your bridge example, the "what" is "build a bridge" and the "how" is type of bridge, where beams go, etc.

That could just as easily be reframed as a more general "what" of "increase traffic capacity from A to B". The "how" might be a bridge, or it might be a new road that routes around the lake, a tunnel, or some other solution.

You could also frame it as more specific "what" of "build a suspension bridge" where the "how" no longer includes as many decisions.

You'd see the same distinction form between a micromanager and a hands-off manager. The former leaving almost all of the decision making in the "what" and the latter leaving almost all of it in the "how".

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#216

Post by hiou »

hnal943 wrote: post #194
jonknee wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Silicon Valley it seems popular to just start your own company and capture the value that way, but other fields have solved this issue by unionizing.

Unions do not have a good history of preserving value, at least not in the USA.

Then why are developers outside of the higher pay tiers paid about the same as a unionized UPS driver?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#217

Post by Anasufovic »

dudul wrote: post #114
vivekpreddy wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been recruiting for a few years now, and I've always hated asking how much someone is making currently. Have always found it better to ask "what are your compensation expectations?" Puts the ball in the candidate's court and I prefer asking this early in conversations as to make sure we're aligned and no one wastes each others time.

Why not disclose the budget you are working with and ask the candidate if it's in line with their expectations?

First person to talk numbers generally has the weak hand in the negotiation.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#218

Post by Twirrim »

Jakawao wrote: post #120
toomuchtodo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is stopping engineers from saying "I'm going to contribute $1.5m to your bottom line this next year, I want you to pay me $1.4m", but they'll be shown the door because there's a guy that's willing to contribute the same $1.5m in exchange for $100k in compensation. Which is why you should be an owner/competitor versus an employee if you know the business well enough.

...but Massachusetts just killed their efforts to reform non-competes. http://www.wbur.org/morningedition/2016/08/02/non-compete-ag...

Argh. Oh well. Massachusetts continues to be a state I have on my blacklist.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#219

Post by duaneb »

cloverich wrote: post #110
duaneb wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise all dev work could just be outsourced. The value of American engineers is their ability to a) speak english well, b) show up at the office, and c) swallow large amounts of debt for college to ease hiring. So I'm not sure how outsourcing plays into this at all. I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good…

> I have never before heard of someone expressing a desire to hire a product manager/marketer/sales/brand strategist/designer because they're a good engineer. Hmm, I'd heard that hiring product managers that were excellent engineers is very common in the Valley. Not as an exception, but as a "preferred" qualification.

Hopefully they have some ability to manage a product, too. :) That's a skill that engineering helps inform, but a good engineer does not imply anything like time management, market knowledge, people skills, translating between designers and engineers, etc etc.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#220

Post by jazzyk »

jazzyk wrote: post #188
morgante wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 7 figure annual income is setting the affluent definition very high. You can work at Google for a decade and end up a multi-millionaire, with enough money to retire to most places in the US. From your other comment, it seems like you haven't done the analysis on this. Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days. That's enough to save a million dollars over a decade even if you have a family.

>Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days Yup, all four of them - Apple, Facebook, Google, Netflix.

Instead of downvoting, please check the median salary for a PRINCIPAL software engineer on Glassdoor (it is self-reported, I believe) - it is 140K, nationally.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/principal-software-engine...

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