Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 406 posts

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#211

Post by VLM »

School-Cotton wrote: post #122
distances wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm speculating based on the rules in Finland, assuming they would be quite similar in Italy. In Finland a store may not choose their customers based on a broad criteria (such as age, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation or other reason related to the person). I'm sure being poor would be included in this list. Badly behaving customers can be expelled.

I see. There is no such rule in the U.S., although a lot of people mistakenly assume there is one. So I thought you might just be mistaken. I'm not sure whether the law in Italy is more similar to the U.S., or to Finland.

"There is no such rule in the U.S."

Careful with online lawyering, its illegal not to bake a marriage cake for a gay couple, to cite a recent famous example.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#212

Post by emodendroket »

knodi123 wrote: post #161
emodendroket wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that the ancient Israelites had many places you could go get "prepared food," but the Bible also says you should leave behind grapes for the poor which clearly do not need preparation. e: Previously I claimed that olives don't need preparation which is false. Sorry.

> olives for the poor which clearly do not need preparation Olives cannot be eaten raw.

OK, sorry. Nevertheless, grapes do not require arduous preparation to eat.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#213

Post by pizza »

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

It is probably slightly less wrong to steal for food when starving than it is to withhold food from a starving fellow human.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#214

Post by steego »

stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

> I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man.

  * Stealing something back
  * Stealing Hitler's secret plans
  * Stealing a portion of everybody's property/income, but providing vital protection, infrastructure and social services in return.
  * Stealing the heart of a girl from a guy who abuses her.
  * Stealing land from the commons to efficiently put it to work
  * Stealing land at market value to create a public works project that benefits the rest of society
In all seriousness, property rights are a critical component if you want to have a highly functioning economy, but as soon as you try to moralize the idea like it's a sacrosanct moral imperative (even at the expense of hungry people), you begin to sound like a foolish ideologue. The reason you sound like a foolish ideologue is because different moral ideas can very easily find themselves in opposition in common circumstances. If a situation forced you to choose between compassion and property rights (Maybe you're asked to steal a life saving medicine for someone else in dire need), which do you choose? Morally speaking, does property rights actually trump compassion, or do we let property rights trump compassion because that idea scales up to large societies better?

Property rights is a critically important idea that helps to serve a society. It's not an end unto its own, nor is it an unimpeachable moral imperative.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#215

Post by fosco »

Fuxy wrote: post #201
ino wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you're starving and alone, you're not the same person. You can feel the civility, bon-ton and good education vanishing, you don't even think about it. People will give you food if they see you in this state. If you can't get it any other way, you will steal.

Survival and civility are not compatible. Until you have been forced to the brink of dying from starvation you will not understand. It's quite simple when you think about it would you rather die in the streets from lack of food or go into a supermarket and take some to live another day hell even if you get caught you go to prison where you get fed. There's no point in punishing these people the punishment is actually…

just to add.....it is not uncommon in certain cities for homeless to break windows or steal with the intention of getting caught as the weather gets extreme... for the sole purpose of having a 'comfortable'(everything is relative) jail to sleep in.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#216

Post by arethuza »

distances wrote: post #105
School-Cotton wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S. it certainly is, as long as you're not discriminating against one of a short whitelist of protected classes (homeless isn't on that list). I don't know the law in Italy. Do you, or are you just speculating?

I'm speculating based on the rules in Finland, assuming they would be quite similar in Italy. In Finland a store may not choose their customers based on a broad criteria (such as age, ethnicity, disability, sexual orientation or other reason related to the person). I'm sure being poor would be included in this list. Badly behaving customers can be expelled.

There is a case in the UK at the moment where a bakery has got into trouble for refusing to bake a cake with a pro-gay marriage slogan on it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35474167

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#217

Post by vidarh »

dimino wrote: post #169
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

Agreed -- I think we should, as neediness increases, lower the penalties per a judge's discretion, but I don't think we should ever completely eliminate the criminal aspect of theft. There is room in a justice system to convict a person of a crime without punishing that person in any meaningful way.

A conviction is in itself substantial punishment most places.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#218

Post by stronglikedan »

eveningcoffee wrote: post #183
stronglikedan wrote: post #133

I'm apparently in the minority, but, after reading the article, I still maintain that there is never a reason to steal from your fellow man. The potential for abuse due to hunger being subjective notwithstanding, there are social programs in place to accommodate the needy. Do they not have these programs in Italy? I am a very compassionate, empathetic (to a fault) person, but I just don't see the justification for th…

I think you are right! We should provide aid for people who are in danger of starvation, but it does not give anybody right to steal from fellow human. I have a personal experience with possible abuse. I saw a man, probably a foreign (so he is probably not supposed to be familiar with local aid system), with a sign that he needs money for food because he is starving and he indeed did not look alright. After consideri…

I usually don't have cash, but if someone comes up to me in a parking lot of a store, I offer to take them in and purchase food for them on my credit card. They sometimes accept the offer, but the majority don't.

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#219

Post by protomyth »

vidarh wrote: post #210
protomyth wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not been privileged all my life. I have a dislike for fish because of some of things and situations we were in. It is never, ever ok to steal. Stealing from a supermarket is stealing from a person or people. Just because you cannot name who is affected doesn't mean it isn't people. It is black and white. The morality and legality are in alignment in this regard. This whole "shades of grey" leads to the blackness…

> It is black and white That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position. > The whole point of government social programs is to provide for survival. There are organizations that provide and places to go. Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.

> That you believe this makes it absolutely impossible for me to think you're not in a privileged position.

Believe what you want, but I sure as hell didn't grow up in a privileged position.

> Great when you know where to go, and they work as they should. They are not perfect. And people are not perfect. Especially not when starving.

Churches will give food, its part of many faiths. Stealing is wrong, and brings misery to others. People will help others, but taking is never right because of the chain of pain you unleash in the world. Whose privileged when you can decide to take from others?

Re: Italian court rules food theft 'not a crime' if hungry

#220

Post by vidarh »

CajunAlexTrebec wrote: post #146
c0nducktr wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are homeless and go hungry in all countries. This isn't something that only happens in Italy. It's a worldwide issue.

Good point. On a related note, I personally cannot imagine a world where any theft is justified. Personal property rights are key in maintaining a functioning free market economy. This ruling by the court flies in the face of those rights.

A society that can't survive even the occasional act of kindness to starving people is not worth saving.
Post reply on HN