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Let Snowden Come Home

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Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#201

Post by themeek »

task_queue wrote: post #184
themeek wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have time for anything comprehensive, but if you feel like doing your own research look into: - NGOs and CSOs the US has in China and their support of Civil Society; Civil Society is a comprehensive word that means signon to US standards, expectations, culture, economic norms, etc - Source code (hosted on GitHub) that supports civil dissidents and websites (greatfirewall) that align with US narrative work tha…

This is very interesting, do you have any sources of information where I can read up about this? Even a general site where information like this is curated.

Alas I do not know of a general site where information like this is curated. Cryptome sometimes posts similar information. Wikileaks, too. Following a variety of journalistic outfits with integrity (get to know the individual journalists - do not follow 'brands') helps (I do not feel comfortable sharing my personal list here). Reading reports from Washington Thinktanks, especially in the national defense arena is very helpful as they speak sometimes very plainly about the US strategic purposes of things that otherwise seem very odd. It's also really useful to have the patience to trawl through boring documents for key terminology and to use search engines to be your own poor man's investigative journalist.

There are people who spend 100% of their time focused on any particular country or issue you are interested in. Find professors of foreign policy or cultural studies and security advisors for the country or area. There are similarly task forces that try to provide insight into the whatever issue - many of these are public.

The short answer here is that no, there isn't any easy place. But the great thing is that, if you care enough about it, some reasonable representation of 'what's going on' is available to you.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#202

Post by vonklaus »

markdown wrote: post #113

> has been languishing in Vladimir Putin’s Russia for almost two years. Is this like Obama's USA? What is the purpose of calling it Putin's Russia?

While it is a stupid distinction, and one I wouldn;t personally use, it is objectively true Putin exerts a bit more control over Russia than Obama commands in the USA.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#203

Post by irishcoffee »

timr wrote: post #111
rhino369 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. Even if you think he did good overall, he did so some wrong. Much of what he leaked is unambiguously legal and exactly the sort of thing that the NSA is supposed to be doing. Clearly legal:PPD-20, spying on China, Tempura/Upstream, Embassy spying, spying on Germany, spying on al Jeezera, various spying methods, etc. etc. etc. Murky: internet meta data program th…

Thank you for posting this. I haven't been able to concisely describe my feelings about Snowden before, but you've captured them well. The discussion here is so one-sided, myopic and hyperbolic that I think the reasonable people don't even bother anymore.

I would agree with that assessment.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#205

Post by themeek »

derefr wrote: post #198
themeek wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how using propaganda would imply that the same information are being sewn multiple places. Propaganda is merely the focused government effort to understand and engage key audiences to create, strengthen, or preserve conditions favorable for the advancement of government interests, policies, and objectives through the use of coordinated programs, plans, themes, messages, and products. Different audiences a…

I guess I've always just heard "X Government Propaganda" as an idiomatic phrase used specifically to refer to things Government X tries to get its own citizens to believe on a long-term generational basis, turning it into "common wisdom." Whereas usually foreign-targeted propaganda is designed as part of a discrete operation to achieve some ephemeral goal, and it's the operation that has lasting relevance, not the pr…

It is incorrect that foreign propaganda is never sustained.

For example the United States government is currently engaged in a blanket of propaganda covering communications, social media and news outfit over the Middle East - they go so far as to create video games for the children there to play. The goal is a deradicalization of the Middle East - the vast majority of which now have turned against or are deeply suspicious of the United States (even NATO member Turkey).

How episodic propaganda operations are depends on the goal of the propaganda. Sometimes there is a specific ephemeral purpose (e.g. military deception), other times it is a short term goal (e.g. increase trust in gov't bonds) and other times it intends to be permanent or long lasting (e.g. America and Western culture is friendly to you and you would like to be a part of it).

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#206

Post by lazaroclapp »

hueving wrote: post #149
aerique wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it is right what he did. Given how much dirt has been exposed do you really think there was another way to do this? What Snowden did is a prime example of civil disobedience: sometimes a country needs to be called out on what it's doing is wrong, no matter what the laws say. That said, whistleblowers are in for a rough time and usually get acknowledged for what they did when they're either too old or dead.

But most folks I talk to (even not in tech) know that the nsa is supposed to be doing foreign spying and are fine with it. You quickly fall into a minority thinking that exposing foreign operations was "right".

The thing with "foreign spying" is that most people I know do make a distinction between spying on foreign governments (were the biggest question is, should governments spy on close allies, and if so, how much?) and mass surveillance abroad.

Think about it this way, would you be mad if Russia FSB agents were constantly trying to get access to classified military networks of the US? Well no, that's part of their stated functions and one of the mildest at that. If those networks get hacked it is the U.S. fault! Same with the NSA hacking Russian govt networks (substitute countries as you will, it doesn't matter). But if it turned out that the FSB was intercepting every phone communication in the U.S. 100% of the time between random civilians (which btw might or might not be the case...), that would be a different situation. Mass surveillance is different from targeted espionage and is not any more righteous when you do it to civilians abroad than when you impose it on your own citizens.

Besides, there is the whole lot of evidence of decisions where the NSA intentionally weakened U.S. cyber-security in order to make sure it could spy on foreign civilians using those weaknesses. Making yourself more vulnerable to attack while pissing off as many people abroad as possible is the opposite of what you want your government to be doing, it would seem to me...

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#207

Post by tomohawk »

aikah wrote: post #83
fsdfewjfiekf wrote: post #7

As long as "home" means "prison next to Robert Hanssen and everyone else who sold secrets to the Russians", then sure.

He didn't sold anything to Russia, the leaks are public throwaway shill. That's called whistle blowing and he exposed the wickedness and the corruption of your "adored" government. But Ignorance is bliss for some.

I'm sure a nice guy like Putin is only putting up Snowden in Russia out of the kindness of his heart.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#208

Post by MBlume »

herah wrote: post #196
austinhutch wrote: post #6

If he were to come back to the USA and then subsequently be detained, I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. I am hoping if such a time comes, that there will be a historic level of demonstration advocating for his freedom.

That's what so many said about Manning and look where he is now. Though I'm with you that if this happens, it would be great.

She.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#209

Post by josu »

dragonwriter wrote: post #194
josu wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what does the US law say about spying on your own citizens? Wasn't the NSA acting within its powers too?

> So what does the US law say about spying on your own citizens? Given the hierarchy of law (e.g., the preeminence of the Constitution over other laws) and matters of interpretation, that's somewhat in dispute (see, for interpretation issues, e.g., the 2nd Circuit ruling finding that the mass metadata collection program was, contrary to the government's claims, authorized by Section 215.) > Wasn't the NSA acting with…

Thanks. Then I really don't see the distinction that tzs is making between legal and illegal spying. It seems like nothing has changed yet, so when he refers to "illegal spying" what is he talking about.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#210

Post by eli »

themartorana wrote: post #188
bbatsell wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not a lawyer, but if he wants to argue that he's innocent or that the law is unconstitutional, it seems like the courtroom is the right place to make that argument. You should know that he would be legally barred from doing so under an Espionage Act prosecution. https://freedom.press/blog/2013/12/if-snowden-returned-us-tr... https://freedom.press/blog/2014/01/sen-schumer-wrong-snowden...

This is the stuff of nightmares. My nightmares, anyway. A fair and speedy trial in which you are not allowed to argue against the charges you face. It flies in the face of everything American and everything decent. There's a reason jury nullification is a thing - it's a check against the unbridled power and resources of the prosecution, and any laws that may be unjust by existing. Seriously, it's crazy to me when shi…

That seems a bit overblown. Nothing has been ruled inadmissible because Snowden hasn't made in court or filed any motions -- this is speculation. And "I had a good reason for committing the crime" is relevant to the case, but it's not evidence of innocence. There's a reason jury nullification is a thing, but there's also a reason the defense can't openly argue for it in court.
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