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Let Snowden Come Home

newyorker.com

111–120 of 311 posts

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#111
post #74

Fuck "seeking some sort of deal with his lawyers". A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. He raised internal concerns over the illegal activities he saw and was told to be quiet. Snowden himself has said he feared what happened to John Kiriakou (the whistleblower who exposed CIA's illegal torture program) happening to him had he made an even bigger issue out of it. The people who should be supporting…

>A plea bargain would require him admitting wrongdoing. Even if you think he did good overall, he did so some wrong. Much of what he leaked is unambiguously legal and exactly the sort of thing that the NSA is supposed to be doing. Clearly legal:PPD-20, spying on China, Tempura/Upstream, Embassy spying, spying on Germany, spying on al Jeezera, various spying methods, etc. etc. etc. Murky: internet meta data program th…

Thank you for posting this. I haven't been able to concisely describe my feelings about Snowden before, but you've captured them well.

The discussion here is so one-sided, myopic and hyperbolic that I think the reasonable people don't even bother anymore.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#114
post #91
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state doesn't think it did anything wrong. All the way up to the president - and don't think the president wasn't aware of these operations - our representatives believe that these capabilities are necessary for the current and future security of the United States (which is, in fact, facing gigantic national security challenges). The state does not want to give up these programs and it does not think that they ar…

What about the trial do you think would be unfair? You can read the indictment here http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/world/us-vs-edwar...

In the history of Espionage Act cases - the Espionage Act being a wartime temporary restriction of normal constitutional proceedings that survived past its wartime statute - excludes the possibility of arguing a whistleblower case, which is what Snowden would want in this case to argue.

It's important to note that Snowden did not disclose these documents - he brought them to journalists, who then worked with the USG to coordinate what could be published to the public.

Historical analogies, such as the huge civil rights win in Ellsberg's Times vs. The United States sets a precedence that is not going to stick with Snowden. Ellsberg could not escape the Espionage Act charge but it was dropped by minstrel. This is not going to be a repeat with Snowden - they are going after him with the Espionage Act because they know that it specifically excludes the defense that the leaks were performed in the public interest.

History of National Security laws show how opaque the presumed-to-be transparent process of the court are supposed to be. Take for example the Lavabit case, done without a jury with a secret court summons and with evidence that the state promised the judge was there but could not provide to the defense or public for inspection because... national security. All done with only one or two weeks notice and a gag order that made it nearly impossible to find legal representation.

This was for Snowden's email provider.

Finally, the Virginia court circuit is one filled with lawyers not known for their expertise or lenience in civil rights matters but one with lawyers known for their favoritism of national security.

But overall we've got what we need from Snowden and I don't care so very much for me what he does. When I say he shouldn't come home it's prescriptive advice: meaning I would recommend to him - if I were him - that he find amnesty because of the facts listed above.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#115

If he were to come back to the USA and then subsequently be detained, I would join the hopefully overwhelming protests in favor of his release. I am hoping if such a time comes, that there will be a historic level of demonstration advocating for his freedom.

More likely a few years after his return, when public attention has waned, he would die due to an unfortunate accident of some sort, perhaps a hit and run or the like.

While this may sound like conspirilogic, I can site many similar instances of deaths of journalists and other instigators under mysterious circumstances in this country if necessary.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#116
post #69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can one reasonably believe that acceptance of transsexuals in the U.S. is a much bigger deal than NSA surveillance?

It's easier to understand, and easier to have a visceral, attention-grabbing (and, more importantly, attention-keeping ) reaction to. That's what appears to matter most in American "news" reporting.

I think that it's easier to sell soap with a Jenner story than a Snowden one.

People are perfectly well capable of understanding that the government is reading all of their emails, text messages and facebook posts.

The problem is that advertising dollars come from big corporations that make money off of the snooping and that well will run dry if anyone suspects that reporting will have a negative effect on next quarter's revenue.

Instead of "Hey look! These Fortune 500 companies are getting paid millions of dollars to tell the government everything that you do.", we get "Hey look! This guy's doing something weird!"

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#117
Why should he want to come to the US? It has little if anything to offer him. Better to make a home in Germany or Iceland which are all more likely to respect individual privacy than the US, and are lovely places in their own right.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#118

Probably not until the Millennials are in political power. Too many of the older generation think he was naughty.

The polls I've seen that break out by age groups, IIRC, show both Millenials and Gen X believing Snowden served, rather than harmed, the public.

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

And people with security clearance shouldn't get to individually determine what is right by their own moral code.

that seems arbitrary and at odds with the modern considerations of superior orders

Re: Let Snowden Come Home

#120
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it is right what he did. Given how much dirt has been exposed do you really think there was another way to do this? What Snowden did is a prime example of civil disobedience: sometimes a country needs to be called out on what it's doing is wrong, no matter what the laws say. That said, whistleblowers are in for a rough time and usually get acknowledged for what they did when they're either too old or dead.

He painted himself into a corner, and that's on him. There are a myriad of other ways he could have done this, but his intent was clear to damage the government more so than expose government surveillance. Most of what he leaked has nothing to do with the government spying on its citizens. Most of the documents relate to how the US deals with its own international interests and how it protects those interests - right…

I disagree. What Snowden did was hugely important not just domestically but internationally. Without him we wouldn't have the current push to reform the surveillance state, so it would have grown unfettered into a cancer that really would affect all of us. I don't want to live in a fishbowl.

Many officials from the CIA and NSA (and FBI) have distorted the truth or outright lied to public. Snowden's actions have pushed back on that somewhat, rekindling a strong interest in what the watchers are doing. Stingrays, parallel construction, surveillance airplanes over urban areas, etc. You've got to keep that kind of power under strict control and keep the watchers accountable.

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