Fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Fired

#201

Post by afterburner » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

vhodges wrote: post #148

vhodges wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to what Europeans have, but as a Canadian I can. It's not all it's cracked up to be. In BC MSP (Medical Services Plan) is $54/Month for an individual and it's mandatory whether you're employed or not. The amount is probably different in other provinces as medical is a provincial concern (and indeed, coverage varies from province to province). Employers usually offer extended medical, covering things lik…

Oh and I forgot, if you're fired with cause, you don't qualify for EI. You only get EI if you're laid off for lack of work.

You can dispute this, and in most cases you'll get the EI anyways.

Re: Fired

#202

Post by techpeace » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:43 PM UTC

BuildTheRobots wrote: post #190

This is probably a stupid question, but could someone explain what it means to be fired in the USA? Here in the UK (especially after you've been employed for over two years and/or you're off "probation") it tends to be the last step in a long process of verbal then written warnings where you're repeatedly doing things you're getting told off for. Relatively few things are actually "bad" enough to get you instantly di…

Exactly right! Every engineering job I've had has been considered "at will employment," [1] meaning that the company can terminate you, or you can walk, at any time, and for any (legal) reason.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(edited to correct typo)

Re: Fired

#203

Post by pbowyer » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

smacktoward wrote: post #111

davidu wrote: post #41

There are people who were at OpenDNS in the early days who were incredible, and as we grew, became less and less incredible, largely because the things that made them incredible actually started to be really frustrating as the company grew and they didn't want to change those things. So they had to leave. Usually it was a series of conversations about how the person, their peers, and the company were all unhappy, and…

In his classic book Accidental Empires ( http://www.amazon.com/Accidental-Empires-Silicon-Millions-Co... ), Robert X. Cringely wrote that if you think of a market as an invasion beach you can think of three kinds of employees at tech companies: commandos, infantry, and police. Commandos are people who love challenges and hate structure. They'll happily take on missions that other people think are crazy or impossible,…

Simon Wardley has an alternative terminology for the same idea: Pioneers, Settlers and Town Planners (http://blog.gardeviance.org/2012/06/pioneers-settlers-and-to...).

He also posits that as organisations evolve from left to right, they still need teams in the previous states for the business to work effectively. Sometimes these are outsourced, sometimes they're not done at all.

Re: Fired

#204

Post by voidhorse » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

rcoder wrote: post #82

MCRed wrote: post #44

Incompetent management is a plague on the industry. And the cause of it is that programmers are relatively low status. In so many businesses, there are "business guys" who end up managing the engineering staff-- at one level or another, but too often it's the direct manager role--and these business guys are incompetent at engineering. When you don't know whether a direct report is doing good or not because you don't…

While I agree with the basic tenet that experienced developers make better direct managers for other developers, I strongly disagree that "any programmer can do it", or that "biz guys can't learn programming", much less the assertion that "business" is somehow trivially easy compared to coding. Doing a good job as a manager is hard . You need to triangulate between a lot of disparate opinions and viewpoints, negotiat…

Yup. Both you and the op of this thread are correct.

Managers not knowing enough about the field they manage can cause problems.

In the same way employees not knowing enough about managing can also cause problems.

Essentially, if either side views itself in some way superior than the other (the manager usually views his job as more important in the grander scheme, and naturally is in a position of control and thus thinks himself superior, the employee views himself as the one who actually knows how/is doing the work and thus views himself as superior) problems can and probably (at some point) will occur.

Respect for all the different fields that go into making a company work is a very necessary thing to keep everything running smoothly--this way the company is only battling what the world throws at it/unavoidable risks and problems that occur--not itself.

Re: Fired

#205

Post by mc32 » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

I'm not sure I'd be so sanguine about things. If you get fired, unless you could not stand management or the environment, you should feel upset. Zach apparently feels okay because the company did it classily. No, dont do that. Get angry, it is their fault. When you hire someone you should not think of people as disposable commodities. No, you owe them recognition and respect, the dame with the employee, but to a lesser degree because the employee does not have leverage. As an employer you have leverage so you should acknowledge that power imbalance and act accordingly.

It's not like github needs to retrench and is having financial difficulties, nope. They simply fired someone who gave them five years because they weren't feeling it anymore. That's not classy. It's less than heartless, they obviously don't see employees as people they need to nurture and develop. They are just a temporary tool they will dispose when they need to.

Sure, this is prevalent, by things don't have to be this way. They should invest themselves in employees as much as employees invest themselves in the company.

Most of all, show your humanity and do get upset with these kinds of no fault firings. It's not just yeah, well. Not with a company already that size.

This attitude resembles a bit the show trials of the old user. Yes, comrade, I was bad, please punish me, I deserve it.

Re: Fired

#206

Post by nlh » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:45 PM UTC

BuildTheRobots wrote: post #190

This is probably a stupid question, but could someone explain what it means to be fired in the USA? Here in the UK (especially after you've been employed for over two years and/or you're off "probation") it tends to be the last step in a long process of verbal then written warnings where you're repeatedly doing things you're getting told off for. Relatively few things are actually "bad" enough to get you instantly di…

Yes, in most cases in the US, you're correct. A vast majority of hiring relationships are "at will" relationships -- which means you can leave at will and be fired at will.

The exceptions are when there's a formal employment contract in place -- unions do this, certain professions do this (professors, etc.), and certain executive packages are under contract as well.

But in general, yes, you can quit on a moment's notice and be fired on the same.

NOW - most "smart" companies won't just do this. A good manager wants his/her employees to succeed, and if something isn't going right, they'll do their best to coach, warm, and help the employee improve.

Are there lots of bad managers who keep it all bottled up inside until one day, boom, you're fired? Sure. It stinks.

I'd like to believe there are more good managers than bad ones (at least in terms of coaching employees toward longevity.)

Re: Fired

#207

Post by IndianAstronaut » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:46 PM UTC

callahad wrote: post #69

ianstallings wrote: post #32

How on earth would this ever benefit you? Oh by the way I got fired. I know it's taboo because well it's not a good thing but I'm gonna change that. Because it was awesome. Thank you sir may I have another? What the.. I've been fired before. Wasn't too happy about it myself.

> How on earth would this ever benefit you? Breaking taboos is a good way to get noticed. Zach getting noticed is a good way to broadcast the fact that he's available for hire. That, taken with his strong reputation in the community? I'd be shocked if he wasn't sitting on a tidy bundle of offers in the next week.

It is actually somewhat relieving that even amazing developers and creative individuals can get fired. Makes me not feel as bad about it if I ever end up in such a situation.

Re: Fired

#208

Post by matwood » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

jghn wrote: post #117

toomuchtodo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally -- For what it's worth, people are fired all the time ( as I have been ) for all kinds of reasons, and so it's not a reason not to hire someone. Professional hiring managers know this. What terrifies me about being fired is: * I have a family to support, and even though we're well off enough to have a 6-12 month cushion, I've seen job markets where it takes longer than that you get hired * The number of unp…

That is the one thing I really don't like about the whole fire fast mentality that is starting to pop up, particularly the extreme examples of "fire for any reason as soon as the person isn't a perfect fit, regardless of overall quality". I'm fine with that, but make sure that I know it's likely coming well in advance. Make sure I understand that I'm not pulling my weight. Make sure I understand that the company is m…

If more and more companies start going to the fire fast as soon as you're not a fit, then expect salary requests to start going up. Taking a new job is a risk, and a fire fast mentality adds to that risk that must be compensated with a salary premium.

Re: Fired

#209

Post by AceJohnny2 » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

josu wrote: post #168

ChuckMcM wrote: post #51

I have often said that companies rarely take it personally when you decide to leave them, so don't take it personally when they decide to leave you. Easy to say and hard to do, like a lot of things in life. Mostly it is the illusion of control, you don't have it, you only have choices you can make in the face of unfolding events. At Zach points out, companies change as they grow, they are some weird strange attractor…

While I agree with your advice to not take it personally, I disagree with your reasoning. For a company you are just a small gear that can be replaced, relatively easily most of the time (even Steve Jobs was successfully replaced). But for you, your job is 30%-60% of your conscious time. While replacing a worker will barely ever disrupt the operations of a company, losing a job will certainly destabilize you.

> even Steve Jobs was successfully replaced

Some would argue about that :)

Re: Fired

#210

Post by jghn » Fri, Mar 06, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

joelberman wrote: post #149

jghn wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often "laid off" is "fired" (not often as in > 50% of the time, but often as in not-rare). Companies will use "layoffs" as a way to get rid of the dead weight w/ less risk of being sued.

You are assuming the company knows who the dead weight is. I have seen more than a few times that someone is laid off, and only after he or she is gone do their managers figure out exactly what they did. Usually to their chagrin that there is no one else who can do it.

Oh what I mean is that people who would be fired tend to get held on to until the next layoff and then released that way.